AKs in middle position (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

We are playing $1/$1 live with a $100 max buy-in, eleven handed. This is very early in the session, too soon to have a table read for the night. It is the Saturday after Thanksgiving, the night starts off light and friendly.

Cast of characters:

It is eleven handed, we aren't getting me to write out villain read until the field thins out. The table is loose & passive with some notable exceptions.

The hand:

SB & BB post a dollar. UTG folds, UTG+1 and UTG +2 call.

Action on Hero who holds . Fold, limp or raise? If raising how much?

 

[Blaster]

Raise.
What size raise at this table will thin out the 8/9 suiteds, pocket 3's and Queen-10 type hands that might call a small raise ...
If everyone calls $3, but $5 thins the field a bit, then $5....

 

[DrStrange]

Blaster, I expect a big enough raise with thin the field to zero - say a raise to $5 might go six handed but a raise to $10 might take the pot. It is hard to tell so early in the night. The crowd is just getting warmed up.

If Hero wants to get the field thinned, $5 is the smallest that might get the job done. (I wouldn't be shocked if $5 is too small.)

 

[Blaster]

Right decision with little info early in the game And Eleven handed.
I definitely don't want to play this hand with 6 or 8 callers, and theres many yet to act, so perhaps $6-8 .....

 

[Phantom]

I was thinking around $7, for thinning, but also keeping in some questionable hands you can crush when you flop the flush .

 

[DrStrange]

There are no worries about the questionable hands sticking around.

 

[MacGrad]

Raising $6-$7. I don't want everyone and their brother to come along on this hand, but I don't want to thin the field too much.

 

[DJ Mack]

I'm raising but probably a limp $3 or $4. If it's early and some are playing loose there's a chance someone might chase you to a showdown. That's not bad if you take his money but then you've quickly established yourself as the guy who will raise big when he has something going. That can be good or bad but playing 11 handed means you're going to spend much of the night with lots of guys behind you.

Personally I'd rather sacrifice a few dollars on this early hand to not be the first guy everyone gets a read on. As the night goes on I wouldn't hesitate to go $5-$8 or even maybe $10 based on how I've pegged the rest of the field.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Make it $10 or $11 to go. If everyone folds, lovely. It's not like AKs is a monster anyway. If people call, you now know more about what that preflop raise size will accomplish with whom.

Definitely not a big fan of a small preflop raise size with this hand. Inviting a bunch of people in better position to flat is just asking for trouble.

 

[BGinGA]

^^ This. Was thinking $10 would be a nice start to kick off the pre-flop raising party. Never folding, never limping, rarely raising 3x.

 

[detroitdad]

^^ This. Was thinking $10 would be a nice start to kick off the pre-flop raising party. Never folding, never limping, rarely raising 3x.

Make it $10 or $11 to go. If everyone folds, lovely. It's not like AKs is a monster anyway. If people call, you now know more about what that preflop raise size will accomplish with whom.

Definitely not a big fan of a small preflop raise size with this hand. Inviting a bunch of people in better position to flat is just asking for trouble.

I agree with both of these guys. I'm raising in the 8-10 range in this position

 

[AlPresidente]

Obv never fold. Mostly (80-90%) raise your standard amount. We should be mixing the occasional limp in. I don't like changing my opening bet based on my actual holdings.

 

[DJ Mack]

Mostly (80-90%) raise your standard amount. We should be mixing the occasional limp in. I don't like changing my opening bet based on my actual holdings.

As I mentioned above when it's a large cast of unknowns I tend to keep things conservative until I can better understand the field.

 

[AlPresidente]

This isn't unknowns, it's a regular game & hero knows most, if not all, villains I believe. That's why I think it's important to limp occasionally and to keep your raise sizing consistent. Occasionally limping a big hand helps protect you when you limp speculative hands. I agree that generally, we should raise bigger later in the game as stacks get deeper and players become tired/steamy.

 

[AlPresidente]

My standard raise in a cash game is to 4BB + 1BB/limper. I'd add 1BB cos of 11 player table & 1 for M=50. $8 to go.

 

[DrStrange]

*** on to the flop ***

Hero raises to $6. [ later in the session people will call bigger raises, but for now $6 is the biggest raise of the young session ]

Hero gets five callers, $37 in the pot. Hero has $79 left behind. Hero has no table image for this game yet, never getting past the flop on any of the hands played so far tonight.

Crazy Jr sits on Hero's left with $125. This villain is a classic LAGtard, loose aggressive and plays way too much air. Win big or go bust is his plan for every session.

MP+3 is a sticky, loose calling station with $80. She loves Hero's chips more than any other - but she also hates to lose to Hero. Hard to bluff with smaller bets.

SB calls, BB folds. SB is the Young Gun, a competent LAG playing $100. He can put people to hard tests. He thinks he is the best player at the table and on his better nights, he is the best.

UTG+1 is the Cougar playing $125. Tricky, trappy, loose, sticky. He slow plays almost every good hand.

UTG+2 is another wild LAGtard. Loose, with an ineffective form of aggression. His bets can be transparent, he has bet sizing tells and betting tells. Difficult to bluff, easy to extract value from.

The Flop: Hero holds The pot is $37, Hero has $79 left behind. Six players still remain.

SB and UTG+1 check. UTG+2 bets $20 { Which I read as weak / blocking }

Action on Hero. Fold, call or raise? If raising, how much?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Just jam it in. You probably have two overs and a flush draw, plus some fold equity if he is as weak as you think. If he calls and you brick out, rebuy. This seems fairly standard.

 

[mummel]

Call.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Call.

This is a strat thread. I suppose there could be some compelling reasons for calling, could you expound on them? Just saying "call" doesn't really add too much to the conversation.

 

[AlPresidente]

What Chippy said. Calling seems pretty bad and folding is absurd.

 

[DrStrange]

One reason Hero might call is to encourage a multi-way pot where he gets better than proper odds on his $20. Hero is already just under 3-1 direct odds on a 4-1 flush draw and a 6-1 top pair draw {which might not be good}. Toss in a couple more calls and Hero is getting paid a sweet price to try his luck. Note that I am not advocating for or against calls vs raising - just stating some of the benefits of a passive line.

 

[AlPresidente]

If we shove & get called we get to see two cards with 9 clean outs, 6 dirty ones + runner, runner broadway, top trips & top 2 pair. We're 50/50 vs a pair, a 2-1 dog vs 2 pair (which he can't easily have) & a 3-1 dog against a set. He can also call us with a worse flush draw or possibly even 34 or AK. That's not terrible even before we add in all our fold equity. Calling is probably +EV, but shipping is clearly better imo.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I could see a case for calling to encourage a multi-way pot in a different circumstance, but the pot is already more than half your stack, and your stack is not even 4 times the bet. This is the last chance at making anyone fold who might stay in for $20. Moreover, shoving may chase out any number of hands that make your one-pair outs no good (like K2 or A5).

Of course, with five callers, it's more likely than usual that someone spiked a set, weakening tremendously, but effective stacks aren't deep enough to get that information and act on it before all the money has been bet.

I have a regular $0.50/$1 game with typically short stacks where this kind of preflop action frequently happens. I started raising to $3 and $4 when I first sat down, and I'd get several callers and end up playing awkward multi-way pots with hands like JJ and AQ. So I bumped my usual raise size to $5 or $6, and still too many callers. As of last game, I'm up to $7 or $8—base size with no limpers, mind you—and still there are a few players who will go to the flop with all manner of garbage, especially if it's suited.

Next game, I'm probably starting off with a $10 PFR size and ratcheting it up until I find a size that reliably gets me up against ONE weaker hand instead of four.

 

[upNdown]

but the pot is already more than half your stack, and your stack is not even 4 times the bet.

I'm for shoving for this reason.
In retrospect, the preflop raise was too low, right?

 

[Blaster]

Seems it's either call & shove any turn, or shove.

 

[AlPresidente]

Not necessarily. If we get lots of call trains like this, our sizing is too small for this table, but we can't ascertain that from just one hand. (replying to upNdown not Blaster)

 

[MillyS]

In retrospect, the preflop raise was too low, right?

Yeah I would have made it $8/9 - but again hindsight is always an amazing tool!

In this spot, I am leaning more towards a shove all in. AK doesn't play will multi handed imo, and calling will just induce more callers. Raising is also an option, but with the bet at $20, you would need to make it $55 min to be effective, at this point might as well be all in! so yup... shove!!!

 

[Blaster]

What did you have, $79 behind ..... Bet $72 & just smile at all the villains ..

 

[detroitdad]

I like your statement about calling. However in this spot with this many players and only 79 behind I'm definitely shoving. FWIW, at my game that could still get a couple of callers

 

[MacGrad]

For all the reasons stated eloquently above, I'm raising all-in... or to $78 because it's early and you want to inject a little humor into the night's proceedings.

Pot is currently $57, with a stack of $79. A call here almost guarantees we're putting the rest of our stack in on the turn -- the only possible way we'd be getting away from this hand would be if the board paired. Raise now, and you might thin the field a bit more... bet / raise later, and any fold equity you might have had is dust in the wind.