All In Home Game Dilemma (3 Viewers)

[ktran]

Either way, it's the player that calls that has to make sure how much you're calling with. Dealers can miscount too so, ultimately is up to the caller to make sure on the count.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I didn't see this in the answers. What if the caller had said "OK I call your $55 all in," and had pushed exactly $55 forward. Would that action change any of your answers? OP, would that have changed how you handled the settling of the hand?

 

[Colquhoun]

If the caller had said, “ OK, I call your $55 all in”, I would say, “No, i said like 55. Do you want a count?”

I think it’s still on the caller to either:
A. Get an accurate count before deciding
B. Make the call with the understanding that it’s only an estimate, and any issue is a failure to get a real count.

 

[Budha]

If the caller had said, “ OK, I call your $55 all in”, I would say, “No, i said like 55. Do you want a count?”

I think it’s still on the caller to either:
A. Get an accurate count before deciding
B. Make the call with the understanding that it’s only an estimate, and any issue is a failure to get a real count.

I tend to agree. This is a friendly $20 buy-in game. I personally do not keeping a running count of my stack or take the time to stack in clean increments $20’a (or $5’s). That said, I do have a rough idea of my stack at all times and my estimates are generally more accurate then OP’s - lol.

Generally, when asked for a count (in that type of game) - I’ll say either: I’m pretty sure I’ve got you covered, you’ve got me covered, or we’re close followed by - do you need a count?

 

[CrazyEddie]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I didn't see this in the answers. What if the caller had said "OK I call your $55 all in," and had pushed exactly $55 forward. Would that action change any of your answers? OP, would that have changed how you handled the settling of the hand?

I didn't answer the original question (I just added a comment that turned out to be irrelevant) but I like this answer from @LeLe :

If I the caller, I will still end up paying you the $73 but in future street, you not getting away in any "about" stuff anymore. Everything had to be an actual count down to the cents, and also will put you in my mental note you are angling

If I am the OP, I will offer to only collect $55 if I really felt it an honest mistake. $73 is no way near about $55 in my opinion. Furthermore, you mention this is your "friend" and not just some casino game player

IMHO that answer doesn't change even if the caller explicitly makes it $55. This is a friendly game, and spending a little money to keep the other players happy is a price I'll gladly pay, even if they're in the wrong and I'm in the right.

Now, if I'm the host, or if this is a casino and I'm the floor, there's very well established answers for all of these questions, and those answers tend to be very punishing to anyone who isn't aware of and/or doesn't follow the carefully structured rules and principles that have been laid out by the house. That wouldn't stop the bettor or the caller from finding their own amicable agreement here, of course.

(And for the record, although I'm sure you know this already - "call your $55 all in" is not a valid wager; the wager is "call", the amount is "everything the bettor bet no matter what it is, which is everything he has no matter what it is", and the wager is mandatory as soon as he says or does anything that implies that he's calling, including saying exactly what you proposed here.)

 

[LeLe]

Thank.

Also, in hindsight. I think these confusion could be avoided if the chipset was in proper denomination of 25c $1 & $5 rather than the existing breakdown that the OP
mention

We use 4 chip denoms (.25,.50,1,2) for a $20 starting buy in so I had a fairly large pile of chips and gave a quick count

The large pile of chips are also not helping in both party in being able to eyeballing the actual stack

It will make it easier to Judge the stack by just asking the other party do you have any large chips

 

[CrazyEddie]

I love how the OP was asking for advice about an ethical matter and everyone's response is "get better chips".

 

[Colquhoun]

I love how the OP was asking for advice about an ethical matter and everyone's response is "get better chips".

Isn’t that the answer to ALL life’s questions?

 

[xdukeluvax]

So weird that you didn’t actually count out the total… iv never seen someone ask for a count and someone give a random estimate before…
I run a .25/.50 and you should definitely do
.25-$1-$5 chips. So much easier

 

[shorticus]

If you moved all-in, why is he asking for an approximation? Also, whoever is running the game should be counting the stack to let him know exactly how much it is to call.

All that being said, he called so he owes whatever is in the pot.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I’m sure you can find some ambiguous spot that’s been dealt with in the game before to know how these types of things are treated.

Ie: is this the type of game where if you put out more than 1.5x a call accidentally that they’d force you to minraise? If so then he pays full. If the rulings tend to err on the side of intent without following the letter of a casino rule book then you’d look like a huge asshole for demanding thr 73 in full.

If it was a friendly group for small stakes I’d probably say “I said about 55, so let’s just call it 60 and you keep the rest”.


Also fwiw it is not categorical that floors rule that you have to pay in full. I played in a large tournament at a casino many years ago where I asked for a count, and then asked the dealer to verify - and the dealer miscounted by a large amount. The floor ruled that I only have to call the amount that the dealer counted.

 

[LeLe]

I think he asked for a count, and gotten an answer “like around $55”

He probably trust his faith in the answer and felt the opposite when he got the actual count

It reasonable to accept answer like around $xx in Home games with friends with no dealer

 

[pltrgyst]

Stacking by denomination in twenties (or tens) is a basic aspect of being a decent poker player. If you don't, you aren't.

It's simple courtesy to the host (or casino) and the other players. If you don't, you shouldn't expect to be invited back.

 

[MeridianFC]

There’s almost nothing that’s been posted before that I disagree with. Still “friendly game” Is the trumping factor to me but I would use this as a teachable moment for everybody for expected behavior going forward.

 

[ChipFinderSK]

Stacking by denomination in twenties (or tens) is a basic aspect of being a decent poker player. If you don't, you aren't.

It's simple courtesy to the host (or casino) and the other players. If you don't, you shouldn't expect to be invited back.

Sometimes when I play, and I have a lot of chips, I like to have massive towers of unknown quantities in front of me. If anyone wants a count, I’m happy to count everything down - which will inevitably lead to clean stacks of 20 afterwards.

I never thought that massive stacks would be considered poor etiquette though.

 

[upNdown]

Sometimes when I play, and I have a lot of chips, I like to have massive towers of unknown quantities in front of me. If anyone wants a count, I’m happy to count everything down - which will inevitably lead to clean stacks of 20 afterwards.

I never thought that massive stacks would be considered poor etiquette though.

I mostly agree with what @pltrgyst said. I guess I might simplify it into “keeping easily countable stacks is basic poker etiquette.”
As much as I agree that chips should always be stacked in 20s, there are people who prefer stacking in tens, and it’s difficult to say they’re wrong, especially if there are fewer chips on the table. And 40s can make sense if there’s a stupid-ton of high quality chips on the table. But the point is, people should be able to size you up at a glance.
The willingness to count everything down is appropriate, but that takes unnecessary time.
I remember playing with a newb once who started running like the sun, won a couple of huge pots, and thought it was funny to just keep his chips in a big, random pile. You don’t want to say somebody is being a jerk when they don’t know any better, but that was definitely a jerk move.

 

[ChipFinderSK]

But the point is, people should be able to size you up at a glance.

This makes the most sense as to why towers of chips could be considered poor etiquette. Thanks

Still love the Andy Stacks towers though:

 

[CrazyEddie]

I remember playing with a newb once who started running like the sun, won a couple of huge pots, and thought it was funny to just keep his chips in a big, random pile. You don’t want to say somebody is being a jerk when they don’t know any better, but that was definitely a jerk move.

If the house has a rule about it, then of course I would say he needs to follow the house rules.

In lieu of a house rule mandating that stacks be kept in a certain way, I would say that how I arrange my chips is my business as long as it's neither deceptive (keeping the big chips from being readily observed) nor disruptive (getting in the way of the other players). One is obligated to display one's chips such that one's stack can be reasonably estimated, but not necessarily in such a way as to facilitate said estimation.

One might consider that a jerk move, but at the same time one should suck it up and get over it.

Besides, it was funny.

 

[Jake14mw]

... You want strangers to tell you you're 100% in the right? Who the F cares what strangers think? ...

Well... that would certain cut down on the number of threads here if everyone thought this way. There would be no such thing as internet forums

 

[umbkcshah]

This makes the most sense as to why towers of chips could be considered poor etiquette. Thanks

Still love the Andy Stacks towers though:
View attachment 952110

To be fair, Andy usually covered the table comfortably except for Garrett on LATB. If you do that, it's just fun.

I do it sometimes just so I can't obsess over my up/down for the session.

 

[upNdown]

If the house has a rule about it, then of course I would say he needs to follow the house rules.

In lieu of a house rule mandating that stacks be kept in a certain way, I would say that how I arrange my chips is my business as long as it's neither deceptive (keeping the big chips from being readily observed) nor disruptive (getting in the way of the other players). One is obligated to display one's chips such that one's stack can be reasonably estimated, but not necessarily in such a way as to facilitate said estimation.

One might consider that a jerk move, but at the same time one should suck it up and get over it.

Besides, it was funny.

Oh it was much more about the fact that a drunken idiot had the table covered, than it was about his stupid pile.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

If the caller had said, “ OK, I call your $55 all in”, I would say, “No, i said like 55. Do you want a count?”

I think it’s still on the caller to either:
A. Get an accurate count before deciding
B. Make the call with the understanding that it’s only an estimate, and any issue is a failure to get a real count.

My point was that according to the OP, caller DID ask for a count. If I'm asked for a count, I count and give the amount. If I win, and upon further review my count was not accurate, seems that should go against me, not my opponent who asked for the count. So if I ask the all in in this game for a count, I take him at his word that it's $55. Putting the word "like" in front of it just sounds like some slang or poor grammar to me. Some people have weird ways of talking that I (old guy) don't always exactly understand. On the other hand, if he clearly states that the $55 is an approximation, then I ask again for a COUNT (dumbass) not a guess. Otherwise, if it went down as described, and then for some reason he recounts after that hand and says it's $56 or $57, I'd probably say no worries. But $73 when he said $55 in a $20 buy-in game is BS. He's getting $55 from me.

 

[philhut]

I Suggest the player who gave an inaccurate count accept payment for the count given thus receiving less
or
settle the dispute like gentleman

 

[CrazyEddie]

My point was that according to the OP, caller DID ask for a count. If I'm asked for a count, I count and give the amount. If I win, and upon further review my count was not accurate, seems that should go against me, not my opponent who asked for the count. So if I ask the all in in this game for a count, I take him at his word that it's $55. Putting the word "like" in front of it just sounds like some slang or poor grammar to me. Some people have weird ways of talking that I (old guy) don't always exactly understand. On the other hand, if he clearly states that the $55 is an approximation, then I ask again for a COUNT (dumbass) not a guess. Otherwise, if it went down as described, and then for some reason he recounts after that hand and says it's $56 or $57, I'd probably say no worries. But $73 when he said $55 in a $20 buy-in game is BS. He's getting $55 from me.

Home games are home games, yo, so that might work there

BUT

In a casino, when you call an all-in you're on the hook for whatever the bettor had in front of them, even if you asked for an exact count from the dealer and the dealer's exact count was wrong.

(or so I have read is the norm in most casinos, at any rate)

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Home games are home games, yo, so that might work there

BUT

In a casino, when you call an all-in you're on the hook for whatever the bettor had in front of them, even if you asked for an exact count from the dealer and the dealer's exact count was wrong.

(or so I have read is the norm in most casinos, at any rate)

100% agree. Casino is not the same as a friendly home game.

 

[upNdown]

I’m having a hard time seeing why “all-in” should mean something different when it’s a friendly game. Friendly people are free to do friendly things if they agree, but my personal expectations are that all in means all in

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I’m having a hard time seeing why “all-in” should mean something different when it’s a friendly game. Friendly people are free to do friendly things if they agree, but my personal expectations are that all in means all in

And "can I get a count" means can I get a count...

 

[upNdown]

And "can I get a count" means can I get a count...

Right. And when somebody says “like $55,” you haven’t gotten a count.
It seems like neither of us would be in this situation, because we’d either give an exact count or ask for an exact count, or both. But when you say

But $73 when he said $55 in a $20 buy-in game is BS. He's getting $55 from me.

that’s just putting everybody in an awkward position. I think if I were the host, I’d have to give that guy a warning, and ask you to cash out and not come back. Or, maybe I’d pay the extra $18 out of my stack for being a shitty host, I don’t know. But that “I’m not paying” just can’t happen in a poker game.

 

[CrazyEddie]

And "can I get a count" means can I get a count...

... but a count doesn't mean you're only obligated for that count if you call. Any player is entitled to know the bet they're facing to the best of the game's ability but if there's any errors in counting they're obligated for the amount bet, not the amount counted.

If the bet was verbalized, the amount verbalized is the amount bet, regardless of how many chips were placed out. If there was no verbalization, the amount of chips placed out is the amount bet, regardless of what any count shows it to be (assuming the count might be in error). If the amount verbalized was "all in" then the amount bet is all the chips they have, regardless of what any count shows it to be.

 

[CrazyEddie]

(There's an exception to the "all the chips they have, counted or not" rule: if some of the big chips are hidden such that the calling player couldn't have reasonably estimated the size of the wager, then most houses will rule that those hidden big chips don't play if they aren't discovered and disclosed prior to the bet being called. Some houses will even make it a reverse freeroll; the bettor can lose them to the caller but can't get paid for them if they win.)