OP
OP
Angle or Gamesmanship? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter joeyshin
- Start date
I had situation at the table I was organizing. That was reg (not total stranger but rather regular at casino and illegal poker clubs with big ego) vs amator (guy playing pool at the club we were playing). At the showdown reg who was called and said Ace Jack so top pair top kicker. Hearing that amator mucked his hand. Reg scupped the pot but when he was throwing away his hand cards flipped over showing total air. Situation was tensed but there was nothing I could do. The winning hand was mucked. Someone said that he should get the pot and than have his teeth knocked out. After few minutes played agreed to split the pot. After that during cigarette break I had a little pow wow with reg and told him that if he do that little trick again he will not be welcome any more.
My assessment of the situation was on the one hand that was nasty behavior but according to the rules mucked hand is a dead hand plus we will not play in seclusion all the time and eventually people start playing in other less civilised places (in Poland cash games are not allowed in casinos) so it is better they learn the hard way.
My assessment of the situation was on the one hand that was nasty behavior but according to the rules mucked hand is a dead hand plus we will not play in seclusion all the time and eventually people start playing in other less civilised places (in Poland cash games are not allowed in casinos) so it is better they learn the hard way.
CrazyEddie
Full House
IMHO, as I understand it:
Amator is not entitled to rely on his opponent's verbal declaration; accordingly, he cannot claim that his discard should be rescinded upon discovering his opponent's verbal declaration was in error, or even a fabrication. His discard stands, and his opponent wins the pot by being the only live hand.
Reg is not entitled to intentionally misrepresent his hand during the showdown (before the showdown is an entirely different matter). The organizer is within his rights to apply a penalty at his discretion. A warning on the first occasion seems appropriate, followed by ejection and surrender of the pot on the second occasion.
Buying some goodwill with the other players for his transgression by splitting the pot is probably a good idea on his part, but from the organizer's perspective it should be entirely voluntary.
... in other words I think you handled it exactly right.
Amator is not entitled to rely on his opponent's verbal declaration; accordingly, he cannot claim that his discard should be rescinded upon discovering his opponent's verbal declaration was in error, or even a fabrication. His discard stands, and his opponent wins the pot by being the only live hand.
Reg is not entitled to intentionally misrepresent his hand during the showdown (before the showdown is an entirely different matter). The organizer is within his rights to apply a penalty at his discretion. A warning on the first occasion seems appropriate, followed by ejection and surrender of the pot on the second occasion.
Buying some goodwill with the other players for his transgression by splitting the pot is probably a good idea on his part, but from the organizer's perspective it should be entirely voluntary.
... in other words I think you handled it exactly right.
Thank you... 7 years twice a week. I learned a lot from tournament director from Warsaw Casino who used to work for EPT. In peek of the game I had 4 tables with about 30 players. It is short of miracle that I avoided any police entanglements. I have felt like a small time Teddy KGB for the brief moment.
Miscalling your hand during showdown is covered by Section 1 (Poker Etiquette) of Robert's Rules of Poker, and is grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:
EDIT: I voted "angle", and feel that the player was justified in calling for a floor ruling (who then got it wrong). In nearly all cases, it is in the best interest of the game for the best hand to be awarded the pot if at all possible.
- Making statements or taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot.
- To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
- Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot.
EDIT: I voted "angle", and feel that the player was justified in calling for a floor ruling (who then got it wrong). In nearly all cases, it is in the best interest of the game for the best hand to be awarded the pot if at all possible.
Last edited:
Eloe2000
Straight Flush
Just to be clear, this was not at showdown. Player 1 made a bet and player 2 was deciding if he should call or not. Player 2 ultimately folded without calling the bet. Player 1 then showed his hand after player 2 folded.
Yeah I have to believe that most of the people who voted "angle" didn't understand the video
Well he made him fold
Jimulacrum
Full House
He did. This is a problem?
No problem, I voted angle but now want to change for showmenship
CrazyEddie
Full House
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Oof. This entire thread reminds me of why I hate playing poker sometimes. I need some empty racks. Cash me out please.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Gamesmanship, dude got Will Kassoufed and now is salty about it
As far as I can tell from the video
Winner: bets and lies about his holding
Loser: folds what would have been the winner, gets shown the bluff, can't believe someone LIED to him at the poker table but was fucking dumb enough to TRUST his opponent, calls the floor about it
*Karen confirmed*
As far as I can tell from the video
Winner: bets and lies about his holding
Loser: folds what would have been the winner, gets shown the bluff, can't believe someone LIED to him at the poker table but was fucking dumb enough to TRUST his opponent, calls the floor about it
*Karen confirmed*
Haha imagine being shocked that someone didn't tell you their exact holding whilst you are considering calling their bet.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
What in the name of 1/2 Fixed-Limit, $20 minimum buy-in, hooting & hollering when you win an $8 pot, how does not one of these scrubs have shades & a hoody on, no fold'em hold'em (except when the guy TELLS you he has a full house and you fold for ONE BET) is this???!!!
I mean, I'm not imaging things, those are $1 chips I'm assuming?
I mean, I'm not imaging things, those are $1 chips I'm assuming?
Dogburglar
Sitting Out
This the REALLLL angler!!! LOL!
The worst
Mr Winberg
Full House
Can this poll be posted again? I'm interested in the results, but I feel that it has been convoluted by the misunderstanding that there was a showdown. It was a bet and a fold, right?
I voted gamesmanship. I mean, bluffing and then saying "ya better fold, I got it!" (or any variation of that) can hardly be angling, can it? If you're not allowed to lie at the poker table, then you might as well outlaw left turns in nascar...
I voted gamesmanship. I mean, bluffing and then saying "ya better fold, I got it!" (or any variation of that) can hardly be angling, can it? If you're not allowed to lie at the poker table, then you might as well outlaw left turns in nascar...
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I think what was more tilting to me is how those two guys after the slimy scumbag looked at one card, then slowly looked at their second card
Maybe that's how they were told to do it because of the camera system, but just irked me how unecessarily slow it seemed
This dude is dirty for sure, should get banned for that shit.
Jimulacrum
Full House
If I were in a position of authority here, he'd have gotten a warning after the second offense that he'll be DQed if it happens again. Or if I can't eject him for some reason, he gets a disproportionate number of penalty orbits.
Gotta let the hand play out, as it's not fair to other players if KQ gets the pot there. After that, Freitez is gone on the basis of rule #1, even if there's no other rule that specifically condemns his behavior, and I'd have him banned from playing any poker after that.
Angle-shooting scumbags ruin poker for everyone and should not be tolerated.
RichMahogany
Straight Flush
Still haven’t watched the video but when playing in a casino or cardroom I never release my hand until I’m shown the winning hand or until the pot is pushed my way. Too many angle shooters out there
Jimulacrum
Full House
Not what the video is about. The behavior in question happens with action still pending, not at showdown.
OP
OP
joeyshin
Straight Flush
I’ve seen this clip many times and every time it’s an angle.
Create an account or login to comment
You must be a member in order to leave a comment
Create account
Create an account and join our community. It's easy!
Log in
Already have an account? Log in here.
