Tourney Blind schedule question (1 Viewer)

[Frode789]

We had a new tournament recently. We are usually always full table (9 players), but got a late cancellation, so we ended up with 8 players. 2 players used their re-entries, so 150k of chips in play.
Playing time: 5 hours sharp. Then both players decided to chop.

However, several players expressed concerns that they had so few BBs, even when being in a chip lead position. Which felt awkward, and not allowing them to put the usual big stack pressure on the smaller stacks, as they were in definition of the BBs, themselves just barely a mid stack.

Example:
We were down to 3 or 4 players I think. Blinds at 2k - 4k. Chip leader had about 55k chips. That's just 13 BB. So a x2.5 open is 10k, which is 18% of the stack.

Suggestions?

• We find 20 min levels to be a minimum, as hands per hour is low due to self-dealing and some slow players.
• Deep stack (200BB+. Current one is 200BB)

I have the second break after 200-400, as I want to allow re-entries for 6 levels. (for chip race purposes I could have done it after 150 - 300)

Desired length (including ~40 min break time): 5 hours.
Players: 9.
Re-entry: Yes. 1 per player. (Usually 1 re-entry per game)
Start stack: 15k
Blind levels: 20 min.
Set: T25-T100-T500-T1000-T5000.

Current schedule:
25 - 75
50 - 100
75 - 150
10 min break
100 - 200
150 - 300
200 - 400
15 min break, re-entry closes, T25 chip race
300 - 600
400 - 800
600 - 1200
800 - 1600
15 min break, T100 chip race
1000 - 2000
1500 - 3000
3 min break, T500 chip race
2000 - 4000
3000 - 6000*
4000 - 8000
6000 - 12 000

*Should be last level.

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

Haven't put a structure together yet, but could always use your structure but shorten later levels to accelerate towards the end.

EDIT: Since there are fewer people towards end, shorter levels result in roughly same # of rounds per level.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Your structure is very similar to our weekly structure that usually takes about 4 1/2 to 5 hrs. I would delete these levels.

150/300
300/600
3000/6000

Should help a lot. I will put it in my spreadsheet later to night to estimate the time.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

If your game normally runs 4.5-5 hours, and you had a single tournament that ran long, I wouldn't change anything.

This happens sometimes. Everybody left is tight passive, hands fall such that chips just go back and forth, etc. My group is the same; most nights we run about four hours, but once in a while we'll run a little long.

 

[BGinGA]

Haven't put a structure together yet, but could always use your structure but shorten later levels to accelerate towards the end.

EDIT: Since there are fewer people towards end, shorter levels result in roughly same # of rounds per level.

^^ exactly this.

Drop the level times down to 15 minutes after four hours play time, starting at L13 (2000/4000). If still three-handed after L14, drop subsequent level times down to 12 minutes until heads-up, then 10 minute levels until it's finished.

If I'm understanding your post correctly, this would have shaved off almost an hour of total time from your 6-hour event, while rarely (and barely) affecting those tournaments that play out more normally.

You can also run five levels between color-ups (after L5 150/300 for T25s and after L10 800/1600 for T100s), eliminating one of the breaks and saving an additional 10-15 minutes of overall time.

 

[Frode789]

Okay.. So we had a new tournament yesterday. We are usually always full table (9 players), but got a late cancellation, so we ended up with 8 players. 2 players used their re-entries, so 150k of chips in play.
Playing time: 5 hours sharp. Then both players decided to chop.

However, several players expressed concerns that they had so few BBs, even when being in a chip lead position. Which felt awkward, and not allowing them to put the usual big stack pressure on the smaller stacks, as they were in definition of the BBs, themselves just barely a mid stack.

Example:
We were down to 3 or 4 players I think. Blinds at 2k - 4k. Chip leader had about 55k chips. That's just 13 BB. So a x2.5 open is 10k, which is 18% of the stack.

Suggestions?

 

[Gobbs]

Your goals are a little bit opposed to each other. You want a lot of play at the end, but want to get the tourney over more quickly. I suggest sticking with your original structure and dealing with the extra length. Also, your breaks can be shortened a bit.

 

[CantSpellPoker]

Interested in people’s responses on this. Not sure there is an easy way around it. I was lucky enough to win a 10-player tourney on Friday night. Only one player used their rebuy, so there were 110,000 chips on the table. By the time we finished, the blinds were 2,000/4,000, which obviously moves things along very quickly if the heads up portion starts off at 55k chips each, even quicker if someone has a chip lead. Our heads up portion lasted 5 hands or so, it was over very quickly. Total playing time was around 4.5 hours.

Pretty sure you just have to play/adjust accordingly. Otherwise, you’d have 12-hour tournaments if you lengthened the levels or made the level increases smaller.

 

[DeeVee8]

25-75 is an interesting blind level.

I've learned that my players are like clockwork. The game ends when the starting pot (antes included) is at 4-5% of the chips in play.

Based on your example, the game would end when there is 6k in the pot, and you said you had 3-4 players left at that time and the game wouldn't last much longer based on the chip stacks you mentioned. I think you've got it clocked pretty well. If you go over 20 min. levels, I don't think you get it done in less than 5 hrs on a regular basis.

If you look at @CantSpellPoker 's example, 110k in chips should end with between 4400-5500 in the pot, it ended when the pot had 6k.

Every once and a while a short stack will survive when they shouldn't or a big stack will bleed the other players to slow deaths. These events will move the tournament + or - a level. But overall, its pretty accurate.

If you anticipate your tournament will end at level 12, then divide 4.5 hrs (270 min) by 12 and presto, 22 or 23 min per level. While there's certainly nothing wrong with it, I like to keep the levels the same duration. Just me. Rather than go 20 min, then 15, I would choose do do 17 or 18 for the whole night.

 

[DeeVee8]

Okay.. So we had a new tournament yesterday. We are usually always full table (9 players), but got a late cancellation, so we ended up with 8 players. 2 players used their re-entries, so 150k of chips in play.
Playing time: 5 hours sharp. Then both players decided to chop.

However, several players expressed concerns that they had so few BBs, even when being in a chip lead position. Which felt awkward, and not allowing them to put the usual big stack pressure on the smaller stacks, as they were in definition of the BBs, themselves just barely a mid stack.

Example:
We were down to 3 or 4 players I think. Blinds at 2k - 4k. Chip leader had about 55k chips. That's just 13 BB. So a x2.5 open is 10k, which is 18% of the stack.

Suggestions?

In this case, the chips were distributed almost exactly even (assuming 3 players). This is going to happen, and in this case there is no short stack. You'll also come across three players where one has 55k, the other has 35k and the last has 20k. This will have more play between the top two because of the short stack, unless he/she somehow battles back.

 

[DeeVee8]

You can also run five levels between color-ups (after L5 150/300 for T25s and after L10 800/1600 for T100s), eliminating one of the breaks and saving an additional 10-15 minutes of overall time.

Agreed. 5 levels at 20 min is just over 1.5 hours of play. That's what I try to take between breaks.

This also sets you up to color up the 25's as you're breaking. I wouldn't even bother racing the 500's, just have your big stack buy them out of the pot as they're played and then cash him/her out of the 500's.

You'll always get a player that needs to run to the bathroom during play, but that's no big deal. Depends on what your players can tolerate, but I think 1.5 is a good number.

25 - 75
50 - 100
75 - 150
100 - 200
150 - 300
---15 min break, re-entry closes, T25 chip race
200 - 400
300 - 600
400 - 800
600 - 1200
800 - 1600
---15 min break, T100 chip race
1000 - 2000
1500 - 3000
2000 - 4000
3000 - 6000*
4000 - 8000
---15 min break
6000 - 12 000

 

[Frode789]

So, what we are adjusting for next tournament, is:

• Me and 2 friends of mine will have primary dealer responsibility. We are the fastest at those tasks. (others are slow at dealing, do mistakes more often, forget they are dealing etc..), This is to make room for more hands/hour at the early levels when we are a full table.
• Start stack increased from 15K (200BB) -> 17K (~225BB).
• Re-entry period is still 6 levels, but has been reduced with 12 minutes of play (2 min per level).
• Total break time for the tournament has been reduced from 43 minutes to 20 minutes. I've talked to some of my group, and they all agreed that it would be perfectly fine with less break time.
• In addition, the total tournament length has been extended from 5/5.5 hours (though it usually ran 5.5 hours anyway) -> 6 hours in total.

That leaves 35 minutes from cut breaks and shorter early levels. Then we have the ~30 minutes of extra run-time, so about 1 hour.

• After the re-entry closes/first break, the blind levels go up to 25 minutes. Compare this to MTTs where you typically have Day 1 with 30/45 minute levels, and then on day 2 you have 1 hour levels. The same principle, just in a much smaller scale.

If we expect the end to be at the start of L15, then the increased blind levels (20 -> 25 min) will take 45 minutes more. So the total run-time should be fairly close to the 6 hour mark, even with some heads-up play into L15.

So to summarize, slightly less play at the early game (though will be alleviated some by more efficient dealing), but considerably more play at the mid and late game. Also we have slightly more chips in play (assuming full table of 9 players, with 1 re-entry, we have 20k more chips). The tournament will be slightly longer, but not much as we have cut down on the break time.

Blind schedule

Level - Kl 18.00.	Time	SB	BB
L1	18 min	25	75
L2	18 min	50	100
L3	18 min	75	150
L4	18 min	100	200
L5	18 min	150	300
L6	18 min	200	400
Kl 20.00.	10 min break	T25 chip-race	Re-entry closed
L7	25 min	300	600
L8	25 min	400	800
L9	25 min	600	1.2K
L10	25 min	800	1.6K
Kl 21.45.	8 min break	T100 chip-race
L11	25 min	1K	2K
L12	25 min	1.5K	3K
Kl 22.35.	2 min break	T500 removed
L13	25 min	2K	4K
L14	25 min	3K	6K
(Before L15 Kl 23.25.) L15 – Final level	~ min. Players can chop at any time, as long as they are HU.	4K	8K

Start Stack: 17K (225 BB).

Re-entry: 1 per player. May buy up to start stack. Re-entry closes after L6.

Break time: 20 minutes.

Estimated total tournament length: 18.00. – 24.00. (6 hours).

 

[Frode789]

Suggestions for optimal start stack breakdown, with the above schedule and settings? A standard approach would be 12-12-5-8-1?

Though I wanted to utilize my 100s more, which is why I might go with 12-17-6-6-1.

My set has:
T25 - 160
T100 - 160
T500 - 60
T1000 - 100
T5000 - 20
= 500.

I plan on replacing 50 T25s (no idea why I had that many, sigh...) for more T500, T1000 and T5000. (suggestions for how many?)

 

[Darson]

So it looks like your chipset is designed for 16/16/4/6/1 with no rebuys or 16/16/4/6 T10k with 10 rebuys.

I also think the reason you’re getting feedback is because the level durations are shorter when the blinds are low and longer when the blinds are high. So more time is spent at higher blind levels where people’s chips are worth less. I run my T10k with 25/50 and 50/100 blind levels lasting 30 mins then a 30% to 50% blind increase every 15 mins. We last about 4 hours, maybe a little more. Maybe you can do something similar but with 20 min levels after the first couple. I would also have lvl15 and up reduced to 15 or even 10 mins.

 

[Frode789]

It was, yes. But we changed it to 12-17-6-7-1. After I cut the first level (25-50), we felt that it was enough with 12 T25s. We still enjoy the larger T100 stack though.

No, that was done after the feedback. Previously all levels were 20 min. Yes, more time is done when the blinds are higher, which is intended. People want to see more play during the mid parts of the tournament, not during the first levels. But it may be depending on what the group wants, there are some differences there

Going to get about 30-40 more T5000s and 10-20 T1000s, I think.

 

[Prenders17]

I actually studied this in some depth before my own home tournament. Instinct is to create a structure that allows people to last a while and get their buy-in’s worth, but it’s counterintuitive. You want to lose players earlier and more gradually to keep the avg stack size deeper. To do that, you have to pressure short stacks to clear them out, and make the blind schedule more gradual so it doesn’t catch up to everyone at once.

1. add an ante or BB ante. Keeps pressure on the shorties. The attrition keeps the avg stack deeper.
2. add a 250/500, 1200/2400 and 2500/5000 level. This will spread out the pressure in the mid stages. If time is a constant, offset the extra levels by going down to 10K in starting chips.

The downside is that players who are losing chips early are pressured sooner. The upside is the guys that survive will have deeper stacks and more “play.”

 

[Mr Winberg]

@Prenders17 , I've pondered this as well. Essentially, starting with fewer BBs per player, say 100 instead of the "standard" 200, and compensating by having a slower progression, could perhaps increase play for the lucky players who make the final table?

It's a tradeoff for sure, because you would be sacrificing the deep stack play at the beginning, which most players enjoy.

If you wouldn't mind, @Prenders17, if you have any input in my (quite similar) thread, I'm all ears!
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/increasing-play-in-the-endgame.38544/