Clay vs Ceramic Trend? (1 Viewer)

[TroyMan]

Just joined the forum about a week ago and I'll show my ignorance here. Have casinos been trending from ceramic back to clay type chips, vice versa, or is each chip type simply holding their own? For the record... I like both.

 

[chris james]

tbh i've never like casino ceramics, they have too clinky sound and slippery feel. i also think they dont wear too well compared to paulson clay. i had a luxor ceramic chip and the printing had faded to nearly nothing

 

[Trihonda]

Troy, welcome to the forum.

IMHO there is no comparison. Ceramics are ok... But nothing compares to clay (i.e. Paulson or CPC)

 

[DJ Mack]

While I am far from a prolific casino gambler my experience has roughly been this: mainstream casinos (your Horseshoes, your Rivers) use clay. Sometimes they use ceramic for tournament chips though. Your smaller local casinos are more likely to use ceramic for everything. Indian casinos tend to fall into the latter category. Of course there are exceptions but this has been my general experience.

I'm sure Paulson has produced some slick marketing materials to explain the total cost of ownership (TCO) of their product versus ceramics. Bought in big casino quantities, Paulsons cost nowhere near what we pay for CPCs, and possibly even China Clays. Somewhere on here I saw a figure of 35-50 cents per chip being floated. Let's just say it's 50 cents. If a ceramic costs 25 cents but a Paulson will remain playable for 3-4 times longer then it's kind of a no brainer.

One other thing I've heard but have no way of verifying - supposedly most states have rules requiring casinos to have a certain quantity of alternate chips on the premises that would only get busted out if the regular chips were compromised. The rumor is many of these are ceramic even if the regular chips are clay. The thought being they would be temporary until new clay chips could arrive so long term durability isn't important. Further if someone's got a really good counterfeiting system for clays the switch to ceramic might throw them off to buy time. In a case like that ceramics could make more sense economically.

 

[Forty4]

Bought in big casino quantities, Paulsons cost nowhere near what we pay for CPCs, and possibly even China Clays. Somewhere on here I saw a figure of 35-50 cents per chip being floated. Let's just say it's 50 cents. If a ceramic costs 25 cents but a Paulson will remain playable for 3-4 times longer then it's kind of a no brainer.

I'm not sure this is accurate. I've always heard they are over a dollar per. Part of the reason I've always heard that they are no longer in the home market is that casino's were complaining that the home chips were $1.25 but the casino's were paying that or more.

 

[DJ Mack]

I'm not sure this is accurate. I've always heard they are over a dollar per. Part of the reason I've always heard that they are no longer in the home market is that casino's were complaining that the home chips were $1.25 but the casino's were paying that or more.

Yeah nobody really knows for sure. I've seen a few posts here suggesting that large properties that buy in crazy quantities tend to get substantial discounts pushing them down well below a dollar. In any event my figures were merely illustrative. A casino is a business and they're going to look at the TCO of every asset they buy. It may well be that the large properties are able to acquire Paulsons at a cheaper TCO than ceramics whereas the single tribe Indian casino cannot.

 

[Forty4]

Yeah nobody really knows for sure. I've seen a few posts here suggesting that large properties that buy in crazy quantities tend to get substantial discounts pushing them down well below a dollar. In any event my figures were merely illustrative. A casino is a business and they're going to look at the TCO of every asset they buy. It may well be that the large properties are able to acquire Paulsons at a cheaper TCO than ceramics whereas the single tribe Indian casino cannot.

Valid argument. I said I wasn't sure if it was accurate, so by no means was I saying you were wrong. But your logic does add some validity to both statements.

 

[Psypher1000]

Yeah nobody really knows for sure. I've seen a few posts here suggesting that large properties that buy in crazy quantities tend to get substantial discounts pushing them down well below a dollar.

I've spoken with a former casino manager of the Bellagio & he's indicated on a number of occasions that their average price per chip is well north of $1ea.

 

[Jambine]

casinos are getting a better price based on quantity, but ceramics still cost much less than clay. They are getting ceramic for (roughly) 1/2 the price of Paulson, and they last a lot longer.
In the market I work in, there are only 2 casinos out of about 30 that are still using Paulson.

 

[DJ Mack]

I've spoken with a former casino manager of the Bellagio & he's indicated on a number of occasions that their average price per chip is well north of $1ea

But what all does that include? Throw in RFID and you've instantly added at least a dollar to any chip - clay or ceramic. Of course the Bellagio won't tell us which denominations have RFID and which don't.

 

[pltrgyst]

.... The rumor is many of these are ceramic even if the regular chips are clay. The thought being they would be temporary until new clay chips could arrive so long term durability isn't important. Further if someone's got a really good counterfeiting system for clays the switch to ceramic might throw them off to buy time. In a case like that ceramics could make more sense economically.

Dunno where this rumor came from, but I've never heard of or seen such an instance.

 

[TroyMan]

casinos are getting a better price based on quantity, but ceramics still cost much less than clay. They are getting ceramic for (roughly) 1/2 the price of Paulson, and they last a lot longer.
In the market I work in, there are only 2 casinos out of about 30 that are still using Paulson.

Are the other 28 using mostly ceramics, or a clay other than Paulson?

 

[TroyMan]

Troy, welcome to the forum.

IMHO there is no comparison. Ceramics are ok... But nothing compares to clay (i.e. Paulson or CPC)

I have 1000 Paulson Pharoah's, a few casino ceramics (Seminole Hard Rock Hollywood and recently got a Hard Rock Albuquerque) and some home ceramic Chipco samples (Archetype, Rounders Casino,Crystal Oyster, Classic) and some Nevada Jack ceramics. I like both the Paulson Pharoah's and the Chipco chips.

Admittedly, what I don't know is if I might like a Paulson casino chip better than the Pharoah's.

Either way, I'll probably go for a set of each...clay and ceramic. I was just curious as to whether ceramics where going the way of the dinosaur, or still holding their own in the market.

 

[DJ Mack]

Dunno where this rumor came from, but I've never heard of or seen such an instance.

A friend of mine was tangentially involved in the drafting of the casino commission rules in my state when casinos were legalized. Alternative chips were something they looked at given the best practices of other states. I have no idea whether it was carried forward or not. He changed jobs before the rules were finalized.

 

[TroyMan]

Appreciate the responses, but I've yet to hear a response on whether there is a trend toward or away from ceramics (although DJ did speak to the typical markets for each). I saw that the Seminole Hard Rocks moved to clay from ceramics and wondered if that was a one-off situation, or a trend. I'm not hearing that there it's any sort of trend.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I'm not sure that I would say the ceramics "last longer". They don't wear as quickly as the clay chips do, but the paint fades on them fairly quickly (at a faster rate than the clays wear down anyhow). They soon look pretty drab. The Luxor learned this lesson and went from ceramics in round 1 to clays in round 2.

A lot of gamblers are superstitious too, and refuse to play with ceramics.

 

[jhelik]

I seem to remember a posting over on the chipboard about some ad in the casino trade press that Paulson ran when Chipco was hitting the market for the first time. I don't think that anybody at that point knew about the wear on Chipcos, or the problem they had with the inks on whatever batch they had that almost instantly faded (some Atlantic City chips) But it made clear that Paulson chips where easily twice the price of Chipco, but were worth it for whatever reason they could make up. And the $1 a chip cost seems to stick in my mind around that time (was it fifteen years ago?) so with inflation that is easily $1.50 or more today.

 

[courage]

I don't think there's a trend one direction or another in the casino market. For the home market it doesn't matter. You can't get custom Paulsons, so CPC clays are great and ceramics like Game On are also great at 1/4 the price.

 

[pltrgyst]

... and don't forget that there's been a slow but noticeable shift from both to ABS chips in some low-tier Vegas casinos.

 

[justsomedude]

... and don't forget that there's been a slow but noticeable shift from both to ABS chips in some low-tier Vegas casinos.

I overheard some one talking about this at the Rumble... but forgot to ask more about it. Is this true? If so, what casinos?

Seems like there could be massive security issues with an ABS chip... no?

 

[BGinGA]

Plastic chips can incorporate security features, too. UV, microdot, RFID can all be implemented.

 

[pltrgyst]

I overheard some one talking about this at the Rumble... but forgot to ask more about it. Is this true? If so, what casinos?

Seems like there could be massive security issues with an ABS chip... no?

I first saw them several years ago at a couple of off-Fremont downtown casinos.

As BG mentioned, these were custom Ikons and included security ]features.

 

[Jambine]

I overheard some one talking about this at the Rumble... but forgot to ask more about it. Is this true? If so, what casinos?

Seems like there could be massive security issues with an ABS chip... no?

Don't know if you ever play at Lady Luck (Blackhawk) but they are using some kind of Dye-Sub plastic, cheap ass slippery crap.

 

[Jambine]

Are the other 28 using mostly ceramics, or a clay other than Paulson?

Mostly ChipCo ceramic. Paulson is the only clay chip I've ever seen used in Colorado

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't think there's a "trend", though I have seen more ceramics in recent Vegas trips that I used to, especially in $1 chips. Above $1, I think there's a certain profit from "collectability" in a nice $5 or CNY $8 chip that keeps clay in play.

When the Borgata got hit in a well publicized chip counterfeiting operation, they immediately jumped to ceramics. This leads me to believe that it's a buyer's decision, and Casino "A" isn't looking at Casino "B" to make a "trendy" decision. Price and delivery timing probably play greater factors in the decision process than looks, wear, or superstition.

 

[pltrgyst]

Borgata ceramics???

 

[Poker Zombie]

Borgata ceramics???

With UV security, supplied by GOCC.

 

[BGinGA]

^ Tourney chips only, i think.