MrCatPants
Full House
I always tell my people scarney is like the opposite of bingo, even though some insist it is. So much info compared to other circus games.
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Did GTO change your game? (4 Viewers)
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BarrieJ3
Royal Flush
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Omg. Holy shit finally! Thank you!
In the nicest way possible, I think hold ‘em players are either so deep into their strategy or so incapable of flexible thought/application of critical thought that they don’t see this with circus games.
All locals know my fav is Scarney, and I preach the amount of information possible.
And in games with more gamble no amount of GTO will save you from donkeys all-in win with a one-outer gut shot straight. There is good knowledge, but situational awareness alone isn't enough until the river.
It's statements like this that prompted my original statement "for some people, this is the way." It's also statements like this that show me that you think you're smarter than everyone else. Good luck with that.
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I have my HGTO: Home Game Theory Optimal. We have a rich regular that his game is baffling to most people. The theory is he's a rich loose cannon that will not be pushed off of a straight or flush draw for most of the night because "It's only 40 dollars"
But hour 3 or so he gets so drunk and tired that he doesn't want to play anymore, and you steal his chips then. His IPA Variance if you will.
But hour 3 or so he gets so drunk and tired that he doesn't want to play anymore, and you steal his chips then. His IPA Variance if you will.
Nanook
Full House
Not sure what exactly I said that you took offense to. Whatever it was, I did not mean to be offending
No worries. I'll just keep completely misusing my little knowledge of GTO (according to you). Cheers
The main GTO concept that has influenced my game is the idea of balancing your ranges.
Instead of thinking exclusively about specific hands (“I made the nuts, bet huge! or “I missed my double draw, what now?”), I try to think about the range of hands that I might have played this way, leading into that specific situation.
And then: How to balance my decisions across that range, to make it harder for opponents to play against me.
I can’t say I’m terribly good at it. But such basic GTO theory has influenced my play. And I think over time it is making me a better player.
My fundamental approach is still exploitative. But I can exploit people better if I understand GTO principles, and keep them more confused so they don’t exploit me as much.
Instead of thinking exclusively about specific hands (“I made the nuts, bet huge! or “I missed my double draw, what now?”), I try to think about the range of hands that I might have played this way, leading into that specific situation.
And then: How to balance my decisions across that range, to make it harder for opponents to play against me.
I can’t say I’m terribly good at it. But such basic GTO theory has influenced my play. And I think over time it is making me a better player.
My fundamental approach is still exploitative. But I can exploit people better if I understand GTO principles, and keep them more confused so they don’t exploit me as much.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Yup. More info than you even get in a hand of 7-Card Stud. It's a super-strategy-rich game. That's why it's getting a chapter.
My only reservation is the part where some novice player can get his hand killed in a huge pot where he has quads + 5 points because he forgot to discard a 3 on the flop.
Nanook
Full House
I was trying to be constructive, but clearly you took it otherwise. I apologized once and since you clearly still hold a grudge, I'll just chalk it up to you having a bad day or something, Idk.No worries. I'll just keep completely misusing my little knowledge of GTO (according to you). Cheers
I do hope you and all the others that are mis-using it AND are losing doing so, continue to come to the the conclusion that you have both understood it and mastered it completely, but "it just doesn't work for me"
Ok so now I'm sure that you are just a know it all, because you keep trying to lump me into some random category of "the others that are mis-using it."
How can I be misusing it if I'm not using it?
How can you be constructive if you don't even know the problem? That's the problem with know-it-alls... they take the most low hanging fruit of information (on a website forum no less) and start prescribing their interpretations of truth and reality.
There is no grudge. You didn't apologize either. To apologize means that you actually understand the error of your ways and acknowledge that you could have done something different, or didn't have to do what you did at all. Instead, you said you were not trying to offend. I don't care if you offended me or didn't, I care that you have the audacity to claim that my statement indicated that I was "mis-using" GTO.
Next time, just don't categorize people. You could have easily said that "many" people mis-use it, and you could have stuck to whatever facts about GTO you think are proprietary to the knowledge in your brain, but instead you communicate that MOST people misunderstand and use it wrong. That's the most ridiculous assumption, based on your vast knowledge of all the poker played everywhere... apparently everywhere in Minnesota and on the internet. So once again, congrats and good luck on your totally inaccurate assessment of a one sentence statement and how it relates to reality.
You came to this thread apparently on a witch-hunt to "out" all the people using GTO wrong. We get it, you know it and we don't.
Actually, we don't get it. Go somewhere else with that nonsense. The OP's question was about its impact to our game, NOT whether it is being applied correctly. Goodbye.
Silver_Fiend
Flush
dude, chill the #$^ out. You are taken an offense ant something never directed at you. He even said that he was sorry if you took it that way, it wasnt intended. But here you are still spouting shit, so its obviously YOU with the problem.
I was quoted. He used the word "you" to speak to me directly, so I'm sure it was directed at me. And lastly, sorry was never said.
Sure he didn't mean to offend me, but I can point out he was wrong. Thanks.
AlbinoDragon
Flush
Maybe not "I'm sorry", verbatim, but I think most folks would take this as an apology.
Jimulacrum
Full House
If we want to bet on the outcome of this kerfuffle, do we do it here or make a separate thread?
ekricket
Royal Flush
It works! I’m so confused by this post I don’t think I’ll read your posts as much anymore.
Nanook
Full House
This is sort of what I'm talking about. Not entirely, but it serves a point.
One guy is confused by another's post. Many people apply GTO incorrectly because they don't understand it fully. Same...same, right?
Lots of people read Sklansky, or Harrington or whatever 20 yrs ago and were still losing poker players. Now fast forward and lots of guys study GTO a little and they are still losing poker players. What's the difference?
I wasn't criticizing anyone nor do I think I am the smartest person on earth, however I have been a winning poker player for more than 20 years with more than 10,000 hours of live play. Am I a top echelon poker player? No, but I have been good enough to stay ahead of my competition for 20+ years so I do think that qualifies me to at least speak to the OP which was basically: Has GTO changed your game?
This thread, just like lots of threads got de-railed and rather than answering the OP some started talking about the relevance of GTO in live cash games. Does it work, does it not work? No big deal, this is not the first or last time a thread gets de-railed. My first post was just in reference to that and just basically agreeing with @RainmanTrail saying that I rarely play in a live cash game where players are good enough where any GTO play/concepts/lines etc are necessary to be a winning player.
Back to the OP & just for a refresher, here was the relevant? in the OP:
I do think GTO has changed the games I play in some. 10 yrs ago almost no one had any understanding of GTO. In my opinion, most live cash games @2/5 NL & below have very few players that are well versed in GTO. Some will have an idea of how it works, and yet many would not be able to tell you what GTO stands for.
How has it changed the game & what changes need to be made to be a winning player in today's game? This is where I feel that it is helpful, but not necessary, to know a little about GTO. If a little knowledge helps you recognize what others are trying to do, you can then adjust. Is it necessary to know and apply GTO well to win in today's live game? No, not at all, but it can be helpful. Many people will find that misappropriate use of GTO concepts will be less effective than no use of GTO at all.
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@Nanook, I appreciate everything in your latest post. Not that I (or anyone) should be the "post police," just pointing out that what I am about to say is not intended to be too personal or ruffle feathers.
Your original response (which quoted me and another member) proceeded to communicate that I am "probably" one of the people you suggest learn a little GTO and then proceed to misuse it, and lose more because of it. The only issue I have with your first statement is that it is impossible for you to know or even imply your statement based on the one sentence I wrote about GTO.
Since first being exposed to GTO about 11 years ago I have become more of a winning player than I was before it. For me it is not solely based on following GTO by the letter, but the concepts opened my eyes to many things about poker that weren't even on my radar beforehand. In short, it has helped a little, but it isn't my main driver for decision making while playing.
But even then, maybe I don't care about being a winning player? Maybe I'm a maniac and love to gamble? Maybe I've found some holy-grail of awesome that profits me more than GTO (not sharing it with you guys
). I could have a comprehensive understanding of GTO and decide not to use it to adjust my play style and it wouldn't prove that I misuse it. So I'll reiterate the main point of my response to you, which first started as a tongue-and-cheek joke, then escalated to another joke, and then finally into what I wanted you to take away: your categorization of my statement was totally unwarranted and unnecessary, and felt like it steered away from the original goal of the thread and into the subject of "Nanook knows more about GTO than MOST other people."
I totally understand that you didn't mean to offend me or anyone else. But when the original question was about whether players understanding of GTO (whether vast or small) has adjusted their play style, a response (yours) invalidating others experience with the subject matter isn't something I believe fits with what the OP was looking for.
AND... maybe, just maybe I've been jaded in the past by others who preach GTO as gospel and immediately talk down on people who don't use it, don't understand it, or don't like it. It is possible your words came off more like "us vs them" than it should have... and this is me trying to own up to any projection I may have reacted to.
So yes, I had a problem with you using my quote to prove your point, especially because there shouldn't have been a way that my quote gave you the impression that I am somehow misusing GTO. Other than that, I'm happy if you're happy. Especially if you've been winning for 20+ years... that in itself is very impressive (seriously).
Happy Saturday.
Lil Tuna
4 of a Kind
For shits and giggles, I asked the AI ChatGPT, “ how does game theory optimal play apply to poker?” Response:
………..
In poker, game theory optimal (GTO) play refers to a playing style that is based on the assumption that your opponents are also playing optimally. GTO play is designed to be "unexploitable," meaning that no matter what your opponents do, you will not be at a disadvantage. This is in contrast to exploitative play, which is based on the idea of taking advantage of your opponents' specific weaknesses or mistakes.
To play GTO poker, you need to have a deep understanding of the game and be able to make accurate predictions about how your opponents are likely to play. This involves considering the range of hands that your opponents could have, and making decisions based on the probability of each possibility.
GTO poker is not about making big bluffs or trying to outsmart your opponents with creative plays. Instead, it's about making the most statistically sound decisions based on the information that you have. GTO play can be a useful benchmark for evaluating your own play, and it can also help you to understand the underlying principles of poker strategy. However, it is important to note that GTO play is not always the best approach in every situation, and it may be necessary to deviate from GTO play in order to exploit your opponents' mistakes or to adapt to changing conditions at the table.
………..
In poker, game theory optimal (GTO) play refers to a playing style that is based on the assumption that your opponents are also playing optimally. GTO play is designed to be "unexploitable," meaning that no matter what your opponents do, you will not be at a disadvantage. This is in contrast to exploitative play, which is based on the idea of taking advantage of your opponents' specific weaknesses or mistakes.
To play GTO poker, you need to have a deep understanding of the game and be able to make accurate predictions about how your opponents are likely to play. This involves considering the range of hands that your opponents could have, and making decisions based on the probability of each possibility.
GTO poker is not about making big bluffs or trying to outsmart your opponents with creative plays. Instead, it's about making the most statistically sound decisions based on the information that you have. GTO play can be a useful benchmark for evaluating your own play, and it can also help you to understand the underlying principles of poker strategy. However, it is important to note that GTO play is not always the best approach in every situation, and it may be necessary to deviate from GTO play in order to exploit your opponents' mistakes or to adapt to changing conditions at the table.
(it’s not a terrible summary, but I don’t agree with it entirely. Some of the points are slightly off.)
If you’re confused by my incredibly basic summary, you wouldn’t want to read a thorough explanation of GTO. But I hope you won’t read any more of my posts, while also hoping that we are seated at the same table at a future meetup…
Lil Tuna
4 of a Kind
ekricket
Royal Flush
Sounds bespoke for sure. It’s not that I don’t understand it, it’s more that you are a shitty explainer.
There’s a little player named Betty that I’d like to introduce you and your cute theories too. Real world is often quite different than theoretical world.
My explanation is pretty much standard. Sorry about your reading comp problem.
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The thing about GTO is that by definition (when applied correctly) it works in the long run no matter who the villains are, or how they play.
So any idea that “it won’t work in my games” or “at low stakes” etc. is a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept.
The kickers being that (a) applying it correctly is very difficult, and (b) “works” here means that you can’t do worse than a draw.
If the other player is also playing GTO, you wind up in a draw.
But if they are playing suboptimally, the GTO player will be profitable (long term).
A GTO player who is also mindful of exploitative play can improve their profits against sub-par players by deviating in ways that maximize obvious situations where the villain makes known errors. But that risks bringing in more variance.
From what I understand, no serious players are attempting to becomd perfect GTO bots, because that is impossible without computer aid unless you’re some kind of idiot savant…. But many (e.g. Nick Petrangelo, who studies intensely with a small group of other pros) are learning to approximate GTO play to great effect.
Bottom line: There is no real downside to exploring GTO concepts, unless one is especially bad at learning and applying unfamiliar ideas.
So any idea that “it won’t work in my games” or “at low stakes” etc. is a fundamental misunderstanding of the concept.
The kickers being that (a) applying it correctly is very difficult, and (b) “works” here means that you can’t do worse than a draw.
If the other player is also playing GTO, you wind up in a draw.
But if they are playing suboptimally, the GTO player will be profitable (long term).
A GTO player who is also mindful of exploitative play can improve their profits against sub-par players by deviating in ways that maximize obvious situations where the villain makes known errors. But that risks bringing in more variance.
From what I understand, no serious players are attempting to becomd perfect GTO bots, because that is impossible without computer aid unless you’re some kind of idiot savant…. But many (e.g. Nick Petrangelo, who studies intensely with a small group of other pros) are learning to approximate GTO play to great effect.
Bottom line: There is no real downside to exploring GTO concepts, unless one is especially bad at learning and applying unfamiliar ideas.
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ekricket
Royal Flush
As usual, I don’t think you mean the “sorry”.
I’m just glad that someone that has your immense mental prowess has condescended enough to attempt to explain these things that are obviously out of our league.
Your grasp of these theories obviously puts you in a elite group of mentalists and it’s just a sad state of affairs that forces you to mingle with lesser minds.
But some people will do anything and stoop to any lows for money if they are desperate enough, even to the point of compromising their intellectual abilities.
I’m glad you are a winning poker player, maybe life will work out for you as well.
Sorry, I meant to say “sorry about your self-esteem problem which causes you to project your own inadequacies onto others.”
Nanook
Full House
Totally agree.
Here's the thing:
The definition of GTO may well be like it says above. "GTO... is based on the assumption that your opponents are also playing optimally", but that is often an incorrect assumption.
If you know a little about GTO then you can better know how & when to deviate just like it says near the end of that definition I highlighted above.
Sometimes not using GTO lines at all, is the proper adjustmet
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