Did this hand play itself (in a heads-up PLO tournament)? (1 Viewer)

[bentax1978]

Late in the weekly PCF/P* PLO tournament (6 players, winner take all), @Ronoh and I were playing heads up where I had about a 3:2 chip lead at the time. I think from my perspective the hand played itself as I don't believe I would/should have done anything differently.

The three possible outcomes to this hand by the time the river hit and Ronoh pushed all-in.

1. fold and be left with a 2:3 chip deficit (167 BB left)
2. call (and lose the hand) and be left with a 1:5 chip deficit (67 BB left)
3. call (and win the hand) and win the tournament.

I folded, and to be honest, didn't really give a lot of consideration to calling. I guess the question I am curious about is whether calling in that position, given the circumstances and the way the hand played out, should have been given more consideration.


PokerStars Home Game Hand #143015047683: {PokerChipForum} Tournament #1363835856, 20+2 Omaha Pot Limit - Level VIII (75/150) - 2015/10/29 20:51:20 ET
Table '1363835856 1' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 5: bentax1978 (35335 in chips)
Seat 6: R0N0H (24665 in chips)
bentax1978: posts small blind 75
R0N0H: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bentax1978 [ ]
bentax1978: raises 300 to 450
R0N0H: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [ ]
R0N0H: bets 900
bentax1978: raises 2700 to 3600
R0N0H: calls 2700
*** TURN *** [ ] []
R0N0H: checks
bentax1978: bets 8100
R0N0H: calls 8100
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
R0N0H: bets 12515 and is all-in
bentax1978: folds
Uncalled bet (12515) returned to R0N0H
R0N0H collected 24300 from pot
R0N0H: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 24300 | Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 5: bentax1978 (button) (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: R0N0H (big blind) collected (24300)

 

[derekdd23]

I tend to fold when a flush I don't have comes in. I feel like with the action he has it more often than not.

 

[phaze12]

it a def fold. way too much out there that beats you. the problem that i see is that you potted it every street. really no need. he was calling any bet and a set is not the strongest hand in plo. if you bet less each street it would have made it an easier fold at the river (math wise) or you would have heard from villain earlier and maybe the money goes in before the river while you are ahead.

 

[jbutler]

the problem that i see is that you potted it every street. really no need. he was calling any bet and a set is not the strongest hand in plo. if you bet less each street it would have made it an easier fold at the river (math wise) or you would have heard from villain earlier and maybe the money goes in before the river while you are ahead.

I disagree with all of this. With bentax holding the deuces as well, he has the stone cold nuts on the flop and turn 90% of the time. I would be potting the shit out of this hand HU in a tournament just as he did. Saying he should have bet less to make the river an easier fold is backwards as hell.

Whether the river is a fold has a lot more to do with gameflow than the strict value of the hand, but I do at least agree that top set turned into a bluff catcher on that river and it appears to be a fold in the abstract.

 

[phaze12]

i understand what you are saying jbutler but when the hero pots, he is turning his hand face up. which makes the absolut scariest card on the river (Js) or any spade for that matter an easy shove for villain holding a smaller set, 2 pair, busted str8 or air(not so much air).

 

[jbutler]

i understand what you are saying jbutler but when the hero pots, he is turning his hand face up. which makes the absolut scariest card on the river (Js) or any spade for that matter an easy shove for villain holding a smaller set, 2 pair, busted str8 or air(not so much air).

This will be the case on a huge portion of the boards that come out in PLO. You will always have to be prepared to make thin calls or big laydowns, but you have to get max value for your hand while your opponent is willing to put the money in.

What is your proposed line? That he flat the flop and bet 2/3 pot on the turn? What then on the river when the spade comes and Ronoh pots it OOP?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Is he bluffing more than 1/4 of the time? If so, fold. If not, call. I find it hard to believe he would just be calling you down all the way with just a flush draw (although he could have had some weird combo draw like 467 with spades maybe). Still, once you check you give him the green light to try to bluff, if he checks behind with the worst hand he's the 5-1 dog. I think maybe I ship the river and put him to the test (and maybe get him to fold a seven high flush if that is indeed what he has).

 

[bentax1978]

Still, once you check you give him the green light to try to bluff,

FWIW, I never checked. I was in position and raised the flop after he bet. Bet the turn and then had to make a decision to his all-in on the river.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

my bad I thought you were first to act. yeah, tough spot. He probably has it more often than not, but does he have it 75% of the time? Gotta go with your gut on this one I think.

 

[Ben]

WTF else could he possibly have here to be calling down a pot raise and pot bet on the turn OOP besides spades (and I'm sure it must include other things, but hitting the flush is pretty much a guarantee.)

I would favor a smaller flop raise and smaller turn bet just because we have the board pretty much locked up, and there are very few hands we can get action from in that scenario. Since our hand is face-up by the turn, ALL of them include spades. I'd rather give him a chance to do something silly with a lesser hand (but then again it's Ronoh - he never does anything silly, just always binks the nutter-butters. )

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

he could be turning 3456 into a bluff, or he could have 33 or 55. he could have KK46 or KK35 with the K of spades. There are all sorts of non-spade hands he could have. That said, he should have a flush more often than not.

 

[Ben]

I think the only way he ever has any of those hands here (without spades) is if he just reached his "f it, I'm done with this sh*t" point (which happens.) With so little behind he's not calling OOP on the turn without a set/combo draw/2pair+FD, and he's not going to turn a set into a bluff on the river.

 

[bentax1978]

nutter-butters

True, but irrelevant part of the story, I was eating a snack size bag of Nutter Butters that I stole from my kids' school lunch stash during the heads-up part of the tournament.

 

[Ronoh]

Yeah they all know what I had, 46 with mid range spades I figured would be good. My goal when HU in these things with huge stacks and small blinds is to find a way to end it so I'm still confused as to why I didn't just get it done on the flop.

Had you figured for AA, pairing the turn would have gotten me out cheap and could check jam turn if the straight came or pot if the flush hit.

Final hand was similar(ish), had him on AA, flopped a random pair + diamond draw and wanted it over so shove shove shove flop. Turned out to be KK + bigger diamonds. Not only did I fail to make two pair but the diamond hit the river to rub it in

 

[jbutler]

nutter-butters.

Always worth reposting:

100/200 NL, commerce reg shows up drunk at like 3am, perky is stuck maybe 150k and uber tilted. Reg buys in for 80K. Perky is down to 15K maybe...doubles thru the reg on a suicide/tilted over shove w like T high and pulls a "I have nothing show ur hand" for 30 seconds maybe....they get it in next hand perky has an airball again and agan 30 second "I missed slow roll"....reg reloads and warns perky not to do that sht again...reg is drunk and NOT HAPPY. Everyone else is laughing hysterically....very next hand they again get it in pre flop...
Reg"how many times u wanna run it"
Perky "once I have the nuts"
Reg" I have queens" perky
Perky "once, run it now"
Flop KTX
Perky "I lied, I have a Ten, u really have queens?"
Reg flips queens over, tun X river X
Perky "nice hand"
Reg "FU, what u really have"
Perky "air" this goes back n fourth for a full min tll perky starts yellin at dealer to ship reg the pot cause he has air. Dealer starts shipping the pot and perky junps up and throws his cards down and screams "king ball" K4o! He starts doing laps around thge room fist pumping "nutter butters w the king ball".

Story doesn't tell that well, but some of us were crying we were laughing so hard

From this thread.

Also should post the spoils of Alec's battles with Perky/NYUDave. Epic needle obv:

EDIT: Of course, it didn't all come out roses...

 

[bentax1978]

Final hand was similar(ish), had him on AA, flopped a random pair + diamond draw and wanted it over so shove shove shove flop. Turned out to be KK + bigger diamonds. Not only did I fail to make two pair but the diamond hit the river to rub it in

I didn't keep track of the number of hands or anything, but I felt like the heads-up part of the tournament lasted quite a while. I don't know if that's typical with the stack to blind ratios as they were, but it felt longer than perhaps it actually was.

 

[Ronoh]

I didn't keep track of the number of hands or anything, but I felt like the heads-up part of the tournament lasted quite a while. I don't know if that's typical with the stack to blind ratios as they were, but it felt longer than perhaps it actually was.

When the average stack is 30k and blinds are 100/200 or whatever they were ending the game is not the easiest thing.

Not sure how long this one lasted... The one I won a couple weeks back lasted an hour and a half. I'm wanting to get it in with any reasonable draw, dude would have beat me seven times over but he liked slow playing monsters until the river

 

[Ronoh]

EDIT: Of course, it didn't all come out roses...

Cliffs? I don't want to read 51 pages

 

[guinness]

i understand what you are saying jbutler but when the hero pots, he is turning his hand face up.

Actually, if you referring to strength face up, hero should have 2-4, which he doesn't.

I think you're merging NLHE into PLO thinking. PLO always sees high aggression based on draws vs current hands which is the opposite here. You never slow down a strong hand unless you want to see variance kick your ass time and time again. Nobody slow plays in PLO, except those that come in with NLHE background. The only hands worth slow playing are things like flopped quads where you hope your opponent makes a boat on 4th or 5th street.

 

[bentax1978]

How much does/should my remaining stack play into the decision to call/fold at the end?

In this case, I was at least 75% sure Ronoh made his flush. There's obviously a chance he had a ton a straight ours (467X type hands), that he put me on a set of aces, and was taking advantage of the third spade falling to bluff me off the hand. I think that's less likely than 25%, but for the sake of this question, let's assume that's around 25%. Using those numbers, one could argue that making the call on the river given the pot odds was about neutral. However, part of my original reason for posting was to see if the stacks I would be left with if I were to call and lose, vs the stack I would be left with if I fold, should more heavily play into the decision given the circumstances of being heads up in a tournament. When I spend 30 seconds or so making the decision to fold, it was based on knowing that (1) there was a high likelihood that Ronoh made his flush given how the hand played out and (2) I felt I had a decent chance to make a comeback and still win at a 2:3 chip deficit, but a much smaller chance if I was setback to a 1:5 deficit.