Do "Tells" Exist? (2 Viewers)

[DrStrange]

When I spend time making a decision, it is normally to do some math. Maybe it is a call vs fold situation. Maybe it is a slow play vs raise decision. Perhaps I was planning to bet and get confronted with a small donk bet. Occasionally it is pure posturing.

In multi way action, I often have time to consider my options while the others are thinking. But if something unexpected happens, I might go into the tank for all sorts of reasons.

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

 

[upNdown]

When I spend time making a decision, it is normally to do some math. Maybe it is a call vs fold situation. Maybe it is a slow play vs raise decision. Perhaps I was planning to bet and get confronted with a small donk bet. Occasionally it is pure posturing.

In multi way action, I often have time to consider my options while the others are thinking. But if something unexpected happens, I might go into the tank for all sorts of reasons.

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

I think @Taghkanic was getting more at really quick bets. Bart Hanson makes this point from time to time - If there's an action card on the river, like a nut changing card, more often than not a snap jam is bullshit. Because whether you've got those new nuts, or you're still value betting the hand that looked great on the turn, you would typically take a beat to consider your bet. Of course it isn't foolproof, but I think it's good advice.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

Timing tells are very useful and common, online and live. Very reliable. You probably use them suboconsciously more than you think. You may not give off these tells, you've been playing a long time and seem pretty wordy, but many players do. Look for quick river bets, drawn out calls on the turn, time from cutting a bet out to actually pushing it out.

https://pokercoaching.com/blog/poker-timing-tells/

Zachary Elwood's books on tells have sections on them, first and third books. Timing looking at their cards, timing before checking, timing before raising. Beautiful, and one of the few tells that carry online. No, they won't work on everyone but no tells will.

 

[divinerites]

"Reading Poker Tells" is the best book I read about this. Bought in 2013 for my first Vegas, and it is still accurate.
Better analysis that the Caro. Especially when he distinct before acting/waiting for action, etc ...
A must.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

"Reading Poker Tells" is the best book I read about this. Bought in 2013 for my first Vegas, and it is still accurate.
Better analysis that the Caro. Especially when he distinct before acting/waiting for action, etc ...
A must.

He's incredible. Highly advise his next two, second one is all about verbal and it works like a charm with my low stakes apes. Last one is more of synthesizing the two books together, less helpful but good to read through situations.

 

[Taghkanic]

Yes, the quick call is the bigger timing tell.

I'll tell on myself in a different context... When playing unknown players (as opposed to those who know me) I have had some success with throwing off super basic reverse tells.

When bluffing big and the villain is tanking/staring me down, I will try to be as relaxed and unconcerned as possible -- chatting with other players about random topics like sports, wondering when server is going to come around for drink orders, etc. When value betting, by contrast, I'll try to tense up and stare concernedly at the board.

This seems pretty transparent when I write it down, but seems to actually work with unknowns at lower stakes. I'm sure pros would find it hilariously obvious.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

https://www.readingpokertells.com/2012/11/poker-tells-at-live-1-2-no-limit/

Yes, the quick call is the bigger timing tell.

I'll tell on myself in a different context... When playing unknown players (as opposed to those who know me) I have had some success with throwing off basic reverse tells.

When bluffing big and the villain is tanking/staring me down, I will try to be as relaxed and unconcerned as possible -- chatting with other players about random topics like sports, wondering when server is going to come around for drink orders, etc. When value betting, by contrast, I'll try to tense up and stare concernedly at the board.

This seems pretty transparent when I write it down, but seems to actually work with unknowns at lower stakes. I'm sure pros would find it hilariously obvious.

LOL last time I played in Biloxi I ordered a beer after a big river bet bluff. Older guy rolled his eyes and immediately folded. Perfection.

 

[bergs]

I don’t think I’ve picked up on many reads per se, other than someone’s eyes going slightly wider on a flop that hit them and the shaky hands thing when someone bets with the immutable nuts (though the latter requires alot of baseline).

I do pickup on comfort level, particularly if I start blathering away. I’ve had success saying something funny (it’s really hard to fake a smile or laugh) and saying things like “man, if I look you up one of us is going to look really stupid” - that kind of thing.

 

[Taghkanic]

For the most part I think a lot of the “Tells” literature engages in a lot of pseudoscience. It strikes me as akin to polygraph machines—which are not permissible in most courts. People’s moods and habits and experience levels vary so much that I can’t believe that there are really firm rules which can be applied universally with much confidence.

For example, I’ve often read that if a player glances at or touches their chips right after seeing at their hand (pre flop) or after a later street is revealed, this is supposed to be a clear sign that they have a hand they really want to bet. Maybe that is true a lot of the time. But some players are just fidgety and look at their chips or rearrange them constantly. So I wouldn’t want to go just on that... at least not without seeing that player display that exact behavior several times before.

Specific tells that often get cited in books or in videos ( stuff like rubbing the nose, sitting up straighter, etc.) I jut can’t put much stock in. If anything, I try instead to assess a person’s general demeanor, and how it changes—their overall posture, not precise hand gestures or facial expressions.

There is one guy I play with a lot, who is very smart and aggressive and works with solvers a ton, who after much observation I think I have a general physical read on... If he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, and I make a move like I am seriously considering a call, he tends to get more hunched over and slightly depressed-looking. But I have only used this (possible) tell a couple of times so far, and I only noticed this after maybe 100 hours playing together. Not something I could apply to another player without long observation.

Even so, I think the way a hand plays out is always going to be more important. Who was the preflop raiser, and from what position? Was there a 3bet? Was there a continuation bet on the flop? What bet sizes were chosen? If there are draws against my made hand, how many outs does the villain have, or vice-versa? By the river, can I narrow the villain’s range enough to make a sound decision?

 

[divinerites]

For the most part I think a lot of the “Tells” literature engages in a lot of pseudoscience

Did you read the Reading Poker Tells book ? This is more subtle and accurate than stereotype tells.

 

[Taghkanic]

Did you read the Reading Poker Tells book ? This is more subtle and accurate than stereotype tells.

Yes, and I follow Elwood on Twitter. Smart guy, interesting read, and he is more careful than Caro to add disclaimers about investing too much into specific behaviors... But I still felt in the end there was less actionable intel there than I’d hoped for.