Do "Tells" Exist? (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

When I spend time making a decision, it is normally to do some math. Maybe it is a call vs fold situation. Maybe it is a slow play vs raise decision. Perhaps I was planning to bet and get confronted with a small donk bet. Occasionally it is pure posturing.

In multi way action, I often have time to consider my options while the others are thinking. But if something unexpected happens, I might go into the tank for all sorts of reasons.

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

 

[upNdown]

When I spend time making a decision, it is normally to do some math. Maybe it is a call vs fold situation. Maybe it is a slow play vs raise decision. Perhaps I was planning to bet and get confronted with a small donk bet. Occasionally it is pure posturing.

In multi way action, I often have time to consider my options while the others are thinking. But if something unexpected happens, I might go into the tank for all sorts of reasons.

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

I think @Taghkanic was getting more at really quick bets. Bart Hanson makes this point from time to time - If there's an action card on the river, like a nut changing card, more often than not a snap jam is bullshit. Because whether you've got those new nuts, or you're still value betting the hand that looked great on the turn, you would typically take a beat to consider your bet. Of course it isn't foolproof, but I think it's good advice.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Point is - you would be hard pressed to make an informed "read" based on pace of play. And it would be ten times harder if the villain(s) don't play with me frequently. I can't say how to take other people pace of play, but I would hesitate to put much of any ready into it vs anyone other than a long-term villain.

Timing tells are very useful and common, online and live. Very reliable. You probably use them suboconsciously more than you think. You may not give off these tells, you've been playing a long time and seem pretty wordy, but many players do. Look for quick river bets, drawn out calls on the turn, time from cutting a bet out to actually pushing it out.

https://pokercoaching.com/blog/poker-timing-tells/

Zachary Elwood's books on tells have sections on them, first and third books. Timing looking at their cards, timing before checking, timing before raising. Beautiful, and one of the few tells that carry online. No, they won't work on everyone but no tells will.

 

[divinerites]

"Reading Poker Tells" is the best book I read about this. Bought in 2013 for my first Vegas, and it is still accurate.
Better analysis that the Caro. Especially when he distinct before acting/waiting for action, etc ...
A must.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

"Reading Poker Tells" is the best book I read about this. Bought in 2013 for my first Vegas, and it is still accurate.
Better analysis that the Caro. Especially when he distinct before acting/waiting for action, etc ...
A must.

He's incredible. Highly advise his next two, second one is all about verbal and it works like a charm with my low stakes apes. Last one is more of synthesizing the two books together, less helpful but good to read through situations.

 

[Taghkanic]

Yes, the quick call is the bigger timing tell.

I'll tell on myself in a different context... When playing unknown players (as opposed to those who know me) I have had some success with throwing off super basic reverse tells.

When bluffing big and the villain is tanking/staring me down, I will try to be as relaxed and unconcerned as possible -- chatting with other players about random topics like sports, wondering when server is going to come around for drink orders, etc. When value betting, by contrast, I'll try to tense up and stare concernedly at the board.

This seems pretty transparent when I write it down, but seems to actually work with unknowns at lower stakes. I'm sure pros would find it hilariously obvious.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

https://www.readingpokertells.com/2012/11/poker-tells-at-live-1-2-no-limit/

Yes, the quick call is the bigger timing tell.

I'll tell on myself in a different context... When playing unknown players (as opposed to those who know me) I have had some success with throwing off basic reverse tells.

When bluffing big and the villain is tanking/staring me down, I will try to be as relaxed and unconcerned as possible -- chatting with other players about random topics like sports, wondering when server is going to come around for drink orders, etc. When value betting, by contrast, I'll try to tense up and stare concernedly at the board.

This seems pretty transparent when I write it down, but seems to actually work with unknowns at lower stakes. I'm sure pros would find it hilariously obvious.

LOL last time I played in Biloxi I ordered a beer after a big river bet bluff. Older guy rolled his eyes and immediately folded. Perfection.

 

[bergs]

I don’t think I’ve picked up on many reads per se, other than someone’s eyes going slightly wider on a flop that hit them and the shaky hands thing when someone bets with the immutable nuts (though the latter requires alot of baseline).

I do pickup on comfort level, particularly if I start blathering away. I’ve had success saying something funny (it’s really hard to fake a smile or laugh) and saying things like “man, if I look you up one of us is going to look really stupid” - that kind of thing.

 

[Taghkanic]

For the most part I think a lot of the “Tells” literature engages in a lot of pseudoscience. It strikes me as akin to polygraph machines—which are not permissible in most courts. People’s moods and habits and experience levels vary so much that I can’t believe that there are really firm rules which can be applied universally with much confidence.

For example, I’ve often read that if a player glances at or touches their chips right after seeing at their hand (pre flop) or after a later street is revealed, this is supposed to be a clear sign that they have a hand they really want to bet. Maybe that is true a lot of the time. But some players are just fidgety and look at their chips or rearrange them constantly. So I wouldn’t want to go just on that... at least not without seeing that player display that exact behavior several times before.

Specific tells that often get cited in books or in videos ( stuff like rubbing the nose, sitting up straighter, etc.) I jut can’t put much stock in. If anything, I try instead to assess a person’s general demeanor, and how it changes—their overall posture, not precise hand gestures or facial expressions.

There is one guy I play with a lot, who is very smart and aggressive and works with solvers a ton, who after much observation I think I have a general physical read on... If he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, and I make a move like I am seriously considering a call, he tends to get more hunched over and slightly depressed-looking. But I have only used this (possible) tell a couple of times so far, and I only noticed this after maybe 100 hours playing together. Not something I could apply to another player without long observation.

Even so, I think the way a hand plays out is always going to be more important. Who was the preflop raiser, and from what position? Was there a 3bet? Was there a continuation bet on the flop? What bet sizes were chosen? If there are draws against my made hand, how many outs does the villain have, or vice-versa? By the river, can I narrow the villain’s range enough to make a sound decision?

 

[divinerites]

For the most part I think a lot of the “Tells” literature engages in a lot of pseudoscience

Did you read the Reading Poker Tells book ? This is more subtle and accurate than stereotype tells.

 

[Taghkanic]

Did you read the Reading Poker Tells book ? This is more subtle and accurate than stereotype tells.

Yes, and I follow Elwood on Twitter. Smart guy, interesting read, and he is more careful than Caro to add disclaimers about investing too much into specific behaviors... But I still felt in the end there was less actionable intel there than I’d hoped for.

 

[JackJack]

Tells exist to the extent that the player doesn’t know they exist. For example, I won a large pot at the WSOP by intentionally giving all the false tells. I looked away, fast breathes, shaking hands … I was strong by every “tell” but it was all fake to induce a fold by someone bragging about how many backers he had covering his action.

 

[Highli99]

Tells are fake. This thread should be closed. Mods please handle that. These are not the droids you’re looking for.

Get back to your jam fold charts people.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

Not saying

 

[allforcharity]

Not saying

That's a tell!

 

[AutoDonk5000]

That's a tell!

Darn it!

 

[shorticus]

Timing tells are very useful and common, online and live.

You don't have any idea the number of times I've dosed off in a late night online game just to wake up and pot. If you can get a read off that, kudos to you

Also, I have learned that tells are useful and they do exist, but can be really tricky with bad players in my experience. Most useful tell I noticed at a table, was in a game once where if you were first to act and reached for chips, one of the guys would instantly grab for chips as if he were going to snap call. Every single time he did it, he was weak and would fold. Every time we were head up on the river and he did this, I'd put in a sizable bet and take down the pot.

On the other hand, I've played with weak players who make strong hands obvious. They want to control the flow of the game, determine all the action before their action and are anxiously putting chips in the pot. Problem with weaker players is their strong hands are incredibly wide. In this scenario, a tell signals they have something, but the something can be anything. Example: A player I've played with in the past has showed all signs of a strong hand and turns over a pair of deuces. He later says, "I had a pocket pair, I wasn't going anywhere."

I give the latter example to say, the ability to identify tells is great, but skill level must also be properly assessed to make sure you are getting the correct information.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

You don't have any idea the number of times I've dosed off in a late night online game just to wake up and pot. If you can get a read off that, kudos to you

Also, I have learned that tells are useful and they do exist, but can be really tricky with bad players in my experience. Most useful tell I noticed at a table, was in a game once where if you were first to act and reached for chips, one of the guys would instantly grab for chips as if he were going to snap call. Every single time he did it, he was weak and would fold. Every time we were head up on the river and he did this, I'd put in a sizable bet and take down the pot.

On the other hand, I've played with weak players who make strong hands obvious. They want to control the flow of the game, determine all the action before their action and are anxiously putting chips in the pot. Problem with weaker players is their strong hands are incredibly wide. In this scenario, a tell signals they have something, but the something can be anything. Example: A player I've played with in the past has showed all signs of a strong hand and turns over a pair of deuces. He later says, "I had a pocket pair, I wasn't going anywhere."

I give the latter example to say, the ability to identify tells is great, but skill level must also be properly assessed to make sure you are getting the correct information.

All of that is super fair. The movies are bullshit, there's no "oreo" tells at any significant stakes lol but I use them to fall one way or another off the fence, that's all. You list some fun ones and yes, you definitely have to adjust your tells to who you're playing against, but they're just more information. My wife gave off every strength tell in the book on a 4-flush board and it turns out she had two black Aces. The modifier was that she was interested/strong preflop and continued being excited about the hand, most good players would be less excited about their rockets! If nothing else, that tells shows you they won't be folding to a small bet so value bet bigger and don't bother bluffing with a missed draw.

Yeah online not nearly as much, I rarely play with anything but good friends on there anyways. I've definitely got some timing tells on cousins, they'll pull their hair out with flush draws on the turn, finally call, then insta-fold when the river is a brick. If they have a big hand, they'll click the raise button INSTANTLY, impressively quickly because they usually have their sons and daughters climbing on them while playing on their phone! Extreme examples but useful.

100% agreed on assessing the tell, any YouTube video saying "hErE's 10 SUREFIRE TIPS LIKE AND SUBSCRIBE" is going to be bullshit lol, but all of Elwood's work starts with creating a baseline on a player.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

Maria Konnikova talks a bit about tells in her book The Biggest Bluff (which everyone should read imo, excellent story and great info). One of the things she brought up is going with your gut, but attending to hands/ arms rather than the face of your opponent. I feel like this has been an eye opener for me.

I was check/ folding a $40 multiway single raised pot out of position the other night. Went something like this:
I'm first to act.
Flop xxxx
Turn xxx, 25 tossed out lazily with a broad gesture that read (wtf I'll give it a shot)
Me 75, button folds "of course, I don't even know why I was betting there"

Very rarely I'll use tells alone to make decisions but this let me bluff at a pot with a small check raise (a pot sized c/r here is $115). But the speed of checks and the bettors action led me to feel this would be a profitable bluff with absolute air, even in a multiway pot.

 

[Highli99]

Maria Konnikova talks a bit about tells in her book The Biggest Bluff (which everyone should read imo, excellent story and great info). One of the things she brought up is going with your gut, but attending to hands/ arms rather than the face of your opponent. I feel like this has been an eye opener for me.

I was check/ folding a $40 multiway single raised pot out of position the other night. Went something like this:
I'm first to act.
Flop xxxx
Turn xxx, 25 tossed out lazily with a broad gesture that read (wtf I'll give it a shot)
Me 75, button folds "of course, I don't even know why I was betting there"

Very rarely I'll use tells alone to make decisions but this let me bluff at a pot with a small check raise (a pot sized c/r here is $115). But the speed of checks and the bettors action led me to feel this would be a profitable bluff with absolute air, even in a multiway pot.

I didn’t particularly care for the biggest bluff. Thought it was over hyped and underwhelming. The author is smart and seems to have become a successful poker player, but the story just didn’t do that much for me and I definitely didn’t learn anything from it.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

I didn’t particularly care for the biggest bluff. Thought it was over hyped and underwhelming. The author is smart and seems to have become a successful poker player, but the story just didn’t do that much for me and I definitely didn’t learn anything from it.

That's a tell!

jkjk to each their own

 

[Taghkanic]

I didn’t particularly care for the biggest bluff. Thought it was over hyped and underwhelming. The author is smart and seems to have become a successful poker player, but the story just didn’t do that much for me and I definitely didn’t learn anything from it.

My capsule review:

“I was a total amateur and I ran good in some of my first tournaments, so listen to me. Also I write for The New Yorker and got coaching from Eric Seidel Phil Galfond, but those things have nothing to do with how I got this book contract.”

 

[horseshoez]

I’m firmly in the “tells do exist” camp. But as others have pointed out, this doesn’t apply universally across all levels of play. Surprisingly, even a small-stakes social game with beginners can sometimes be devoid of tells. This is often because the atmosphere is so relaxed and non-competitive that players treat the chips and bets almost like a board game. In these settings, people may not care much about the bets they face or the ones they make, so they’re not broadcasting tells in the same way as in more serious games.

Now, I’m not saying players should rush into social games expecting to exploit easy tells from beginners. In fact, if you go in expecting a goldmine of tells, you might find yourself getting burned! Less experienced players can be unpredictable, and you might end up on the losing side of their wild moves.

For those who believe in the value of tells and want to improve their game, here’s some advice: work on controlling your own behavior at the table. Practice maintaining the same posture, timing, and demeanor regardless of your hand strength. Take the same amount of time to act whether you’re bluffing or value betting, and place your chips in a consistent way. If you have a drink, be mindful of when you take sips. If you notice you tend to drink only when you’re comfortable in a hand, make an effort to do the same when you’re bluffing. The more you can avoid patterns in your behavior, the less likely it is that an observant opponent will pick up on your tells.

While some of this may not apply as strongly to low-stakes games, it’s crucial in a competitive environment. In a casino or any serious game, there will be players watching you closely, eager to seize any scrap of information. Reducing the tells you give away won’t make you perfect, but it helps ensure you’re not giving your opponents free ammunition to use against you.

 

[Taghkanic]

Betsize tells > timing tells > physical tells

 

[AndrewAces]

I unfortunately have a bad physical tell that is very difficult to control. My hands shake when I make big bets with big (made) hands. No anxiety or shakes when I'm bluffing. It's the nuts that gets me all jittery. I've definitely been called out on it by other observant players.

 

[ekricket]

I unfortunately have a bad physical tell that is very difficult to control. My hands shake when I make big bets with big (made) hands. No anxiety or shakes when I'm bluffing. It's the nuts that gets me all jittery. I've definitely been called out on it by other observant players.

I’d be developing that so my hands shake when I’m bluffing - sometimes.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

I unfortunately have a bad physical tell that is very difficult to control. My hands shake when I make big bets with big (made) hands. No anxiety or shakes when I'm bluffing. It's the nuts that gets me all jittery. I've definitely been called out on it by other observant players.

For me, this faded over time. The more I thought about the game in terms of good decisions rather than good outcomes, the less of this I experienced. That might not be your path, but any psychological separation from outcomes could be helpful.

 

[shorticus]

I unfortunately have a bad physical tell that is very difficult to control. My hands shake when I make big bets with big (made) hands. No anxiety or shakes when I'm bluffing. It's the nuts that gets me all jittery. I've definitely been called out on it by other observant players.

I’ve found that music and drinks help resolve this for me. There’s a thread dedicated to this subject.

 

[horseshoez]

I unfortunately have a bad physical tell that is very difficult to control. My hands shake when I make big bets with big (made) hands. No anxiety or shakes when I'm bluffing. It's the nuts that gets me all jittery. I've definitely been called out on it by other observant players.

We have a player who had and still kind of has this. We brought it to his attention and he's since been working on it.

 

[mdt11]

The latest episode of Jungleman's podcast had a great interview with an expert on poker tells: