Do you call this river jam? (2 Viewers)

[boltonguy]

My bottom with offsuit K is K9o, but there's a lot of suited junk in there for sure like double gappers and the odd Doyle Brunson

 

[Legend5555]

Check raising the flop makes no sense to me. What hands does he continue with that you beat? The flop is sooooo dry that you can't have any draws here. So it's hard to ever raise here in a balanced way.

I would have x/c, x/r, and try to get all in on river. If he has KK, K8, K3, or K2, oh well. He could easily have had 33, KQ, AK as well. It would be an overplay with a K on the river probably, but people do it.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah don't think there's a ton to discuss here. You are facing two combos of K8. In an anonymous game I think you have to call. Without knowing your players there is enough chance it's an AK or something.

I like to 3-bet 88 pre against a probable steal. That line still probably gets me broke here with this run-out. But makes it easier to least the flop instead of check raise.

 

[pharaohone]

Check raising the flop makes no sense to me. What hands does he continue with that you beat? The flop is sooooo dry that you can't have any draws here. So it's hard to ever raise here in a balanced way.

I would have x/c, x/r, and try to get all in on river. If he has KK, K8, K3, or K2, oh well. He could easily have had 33, KQ, AK as well. It would be an overplay with a K on the river probably, but people do it.

Considering 6 handed and it folded to V on the button, V should be opening and c-betting with just about any two cards and any flop. If you don’t have a check raise bluff in you in this spot as BB, you’re going to be easy to play against. Don’t do it all the time but recognize that V’s open and c bet, in most situations, are happening with squat for villain. So I don’t take issue with the check raise bluff here.

 

[Eriks]

Considering 6 handed and it folded to V on the button, V should be opening and c-betting with just about any two cards and any flop. If you don’t have a check raise bluff in you in this spot as BB, you’re going to be easy to play against. Don’t do it all the time but recognize that V’s open and c bet, in most situations, are happening with squat for villain. So I don’t take issue with the check raise bluff here.

Yes, but you don’t need to bluff with 88 that will likely be the best hand here. In fact on this particular board I would argue that ALL the hands that want to continue should just call.

 

[Legend5555]

Considering 6 handed and it folded to V on the button, V should be opening and c-betting with just about any two cards and any flop. If you don’t have a check raise bluff in you in this spot as BB, you’re going to be easy to play against. Don’t do it all the time but recognize that V’s open and c bet, in most situations, are happening with squat for villain. So I don’t take issue with the check raise bluff here.

There is nothing wrong with playing your entire calling range as call or fold on this particular flop. You just can't have many strong value hands here. And there aren't any bluffs really. Taking hands that have perfectly good calling value and turning then into bluffs just seems bad.

Your opponent is going to bet here 100%. And raising with something like 88 accomplishes nothing. It sure isn't for value since you can't get called by worse and can only get called by better. You best case scenario is you can try to get him off 99-JJ or something I guess. But that's a multi street plan at that point. And you are basically throwing away all your showdown value.

Giving opponents easy options is not something I want to do. I want my opponent to be forced to try and decide want to do with air here on the turn. Does it mean you sometimes get bluffed off your hand? Yep. But that's the price you pay to keep the hands you beat in your opponents range.

If you think raising the this flop with 88 is a sometimes a good idea in this spot, then you should just 3 bet pre.

 

[pharaohone]

Yes, but you don’t need to bluff with 88 that will likely be the best hand here. In fact on this particular board I would argue that ALL the hands that want to continue should just call.

You get info by raising. And as I said, the flat after the raise, we can infer villain is quite strong and likely has Kx. Just sucks his kicker was an 8.

 

[surfik]

I was one on the other side of the identical situation VS most experienced player I know. Guy already forgot more about Hołdem than I will ever learn. He almost know and call anyway. Too good spot vs AK or KQ, itd.

 

[Eriks]

You get info by raising. And as I said, the flat after the raise, we can infer villain is quite strong and likely has Kx. Just sucks his kicker was an 8.

But what more does that accomplish? You fold out all hands that you beat and take yourself to valuetown against a much stronger range. And oop at that. Just accept that it sucks to be oop, check/call and check/eval turn, depending on card we can call or fold. Yes an A/Q/J turn will be a tough call but what do you do if you check/raise flop and the turn is a deuce? Keep betting? Check/call? Check/fold. I guarantee it will be more difficult to play the turn and river with the aggressive flop line.

 

[boltonguy]

Multi-way jam fest. Check this hand out - what are these guys thinking?

Ignition Hand #4073199903 Zone Poker ID#1692 HOLDEMZonePoker No Limit [MVS] - 2021-02-13 22:25:20 UTC
Table Info: Version: 1, Type: MVS, Stakes: $0.10-$0.25, Table: 43DA0B90-0
Seat 1: UTG+1 ($23.02 in chips)
Seat 2: UTG+2 ($44.14 in chips)
Seat 3: Dealer ($54.18 in chips)
Seat 4: Small Blind ($25.88 in chips)
Seat 5: Big Blind [ME] ($25.70 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG ($10.68 in chips)

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Big Blind [ME] : Card dealt to a spot

UTG : Calls $0.25
UTG+1 : Folds
UTG+2 : Folds
Dealer : Raises $0.50 to $0.50
Small Blind : Folds
Big Blind [ME] : Calls $0.25
UTG : Calls $0.25

*** FLOP ***
Big Blind [ME] : Checks
UTG : Checks
Dealer : Checks

*** TURN ***
Big Blind [ME] : Bets $0.50
UTG : All-in(raise) $10.18 to $10.18
Dealer : Calls $10.18
Big Blind [ME] : All-in(raise) $24.70 to $25.20
Dealer : Calls $15.02

*** RIVER ***
Dealer : Showdown [As Ah Jh Jc Qs]
Big Blind [ME] : Showdown [As Ah Ad Qs Jc]
UTG : Showdown [As Ah Ac Qs Jc]
Big Blind [ME] : Hand result-Side pot $29.08
Big Blind [ME] : Hand result $15.55
UTG : Hand result $15.55

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealer : Card dealt to a spot [8h Jh]
Big Blind [ME] : Card dealt to a spot [Ad 6s]
UTG : Card dealt to a spot [2d Ac]

 

[pharaohone]

But what more does that accomplish? You fold out all hands that you beat and take yourself to valuetown against a much stronger range. And oop at that. Just accept that it sucks to be oop, check/call and check/eval turn, depending on card we can call or fold. Yes an A/Q/J turn will be a tough call but what do you do if you check/raise flop and the turn is a deuce? Keep betting? Check/call? Check/fold. I guarantee it will be more difficult to play the turn and river with the aggressive flop line.

I would have folded to any more action if the 8 didn’t come after V flats the check raise on flop. Can’t say if that is saving more vs calling later had we just called flop. And don’t know which is better when you run out the various iterations. Just agreed with the Op’s play is all. And you disagree, and I understand the rationale for calling/your POV, just not how I would play it. That is what makes the game fun.

 

[pharaohone]

If you think raising the this flop with 88 is a sometimes a good idea in this spot, then you should just 3 bet pre.

Don’t love a 3 bet out of position with 88 personally. Bloats pot, not sure you get button to fold that often. Would rather play a little smaller and see if I can just steal it after button c bets.

 

[Legend5555]

Don’t love a 3 bet out of position with 88 personally. Bloats pot, not sure you get button to fold that often. Would rather play a little smaller and see if I can just steal it after button c bets.

Against a button raise? Seriously? I'm not saying you should 3 bet it 100%. But clearly 88 is better than the raising range for the button.

 

[pharaohone]

Against a button raise? Seriously? I'm not saying you should 3 bet it 100%. But clearly 88 is better than the raising range for the button.

Definitely have them beat most of the time pre... but not by a lot... half the time your coin flipping, just don’t think you move them off that often with a 3 bet. And middle pairs are tough to play post flop. But button is going to push you around and Blind defense need not just be pre flop. Hence like check raises to c bets after flatting pre flop obvious open of anything from button and then check raising the obvious c bet. Prefer your preferred calling down line vs 3 betting. So (for me):

check raise c bet > check/call throughout hand line (take show down value) > 3 bet pre flop

 

[boltonguy]

If I just call flop I think I’m going to have to fold to any over card on turn or river if v bets. That’s 22 cards on two streets or 88% likely that a 9,T,J,Q,K or A come. It is highly likely that I have the best hand on flop so I bet for protection. If I get QJo to fold I’m happy

 

[boltonguy]

There is a ton of turn barreling and lately very little FE preflop so I’ve only been 3betting for value with the occasional A5s when IP