Donkey move? (1 Viewer)

[legonick]

Memory recall hand...so go easy on me here....

17 BB in a fast bar league tournament. 3 table tournament, currently 6-handed at this table. Maniac player OTB, I'm in BB. Folds to maniac. Maniac min-bets pre, I look down at 5d5c.

SB calls, I call.

Flop comes Qh3d4d. I check. Maniac bets out 2K (it's 500/1000) into ~6K pot. SB folds.

Should I just fold here? It feels like this guy is capable of making this play with ATC, or he's running extremely good and has been making several plays like this for many hands prior to this. My original plan was set mine, but that flop just doesn't seem like it'd connect with this aggressive player much, and he's just building a pot to steal OTB. I mean the board is 2 unders and I have a blocker to the diamond flush.

I re-raise him to 8K. He calls.

Turn comes a 7s. I check. He shoves.

I have a meeting in the morning. Knowing I'm beat, but seeing there is some chance he's on a flush draw and I have a blocker, I make a crying call. He turns over QdJd. I'm pretty dead...non-diamond brick on the river, bye-bye!

Def. not my shining moment, but you live and you learn. I have a pretty tight rep., so when I check-raised him on the flop and he flatted, I should have known I was dead. The thing is, at that point, my stack's so dang small, not sure I could have done much with it. Fold against a maniac there and have 7 BB? Or hope he's on a flush draw and misses with 1 card to come?

I guess I should have stuck with my original plan...no 5, bye bye! LOL.

Thoughts? How would you have played it differently?

Thank you for your time!

 

[Frogzilla]

Ok with jam pre. Ok with flat pre and call down post. Flop raise not my favorite, just call 55. And call turn. And maybe call off stack river so you still going home this hand but you get more value check calling out of some other holding he could have

 

[upNdown]

At 17bb, you're quickly approaching the point where you might be better jamming that small pocket pair preflop, than considering anything anything else except folding. I suppose limping to set-mine would be fine, so in that regard, flat-calling a minraise to set-mine isn't the end of the world.
But once you don't flop your set, you need to get out of there. Even if 55 is good at the moment, there's still a turn and river that you'd need to survive, not just cardwise, but chipwise too. You 100% can't call that flop bet - it's either a raise or a fold. But the raise needs to be big enough to get rid of him, which means all in, maybe. Stack sizes may dictate that that isn't enough (or he actually has top pair, as he did.)

 

[detroitdad]

17 BB in a fast bar league tournament. 3 table tournament, currently 6-handed at this table.

All in, I don't need to read the rest lol

 

[Mojo1312]

Without knowing chip stack sizes, I am calling a min-raise with pocket fives in this spot and folding to any c-bet if my hand misses the flop.

 

[Senzrock]

Yeah this is just a jam preflop. A pair vs most button opens is fine to jam here and against a player you consider a “maniac” it’s just a snap jam. Post flop is a mess because there isn’t much room to do much. If you are taking the “I gotta get up early in the morning” approach post flop anyway, better to do the same pre.

 

[raynmanas]

no 5, bye bye!

i probably don't jam pre-flop, but i certainly understand the reasoning.

regardless, easy flop fold to look for a better opportunity.

 

[MrCatPants]

This is an awkward stack size, a few BB less and jam is the only answer. Jam here is still probably my answer against a non-tight player.

That said, you are too short to set mine - that's more of a deepstack strategy and stacks need to be larger for the math to work out for all the times you miss.

IMO, Jam > Fold > Call.

 

[detroitdad]

I'm not a tourney player. Hell, I'm barely a cash player. My thoughts are this. If you are planning on calling a bet, then I think you are committed. Otherwise you are crippling your stack. I'm folding or shoving. In this case I'm shoving. I'd rather go out being the aggressor.

 

[Mojo1312]

Stack sizes, Villain descriptions, pay-outs are all worth considering imo.

 

[upNdown]

Stack sizes, Villain descriptions, pay-outs are all worth considering imo.

Usually

17 BB in a fast bar league tournament.

But maybe not this time?
I’m sure there are different kinds of bar league poker. But the ones I’ve played in have been free shitshows where people accumulated league points based on where they finished in the tournaments and the amount of their bar tab (I’m not kidding.) I started playing them when I was a new player, but quickly stopped, realizing that they were likely to make me a worse player.

 

[grebe]

17 BB in a fast bar league tournament. 3 table tournament, currently 6-handed at this table. Maniac player OTB, I'm in BB. Folds to maniac. Maniac min-bets pre, I look down at 5d5c.

This is a perfect place to shove preflop. Your stack level, the opponent and his position, your cards....Your stack is in the "resteal" zone....which means you should be looking for people trying to steal pots, then resteal from them, because it will be hard to call if you shove.

To learn more about how to figure out where your stack lies in short stack poker and what to look for when playing this way, get a copy of "Short Stack Ninja" by Chris Wallace

 

[grebe]

Without knowing chip stack sizes, I am calling a min-raise with pocket fives in this spot and folding to any c-bet if my hand misses the flop.

Respectfully, you do not have proper odds for set mining. Stacks are too small.

 

[upNdown]

Respectfully, you do not have proper odds for set mining. Stacks are too small.

I agree with you 100%. But there’s set mining and then there’s this. Personally, I’m never set mining at this point in a tournament, and I’m likely folding here. But flatting a min-raise on the button with a small pocket pair isn’t the worst move in the world either.

 

[grebe]

But flatting a min-raise on the button with a small pocket pair isn’t the worst move in the world either.

This is EXACTLY how villain wants you to play. And, he hopes you do it again next orbit, too.

 

[Mojo1312]

This is a perfect place to shove preflop. Your stack level, the opponent and his position, your cards....Your stack is in the "resteal" zone....which means you should be looking for people trying to steal pots, then resteal from them, because it will be hard to call if you shove.

To learn more about how to figure out where your stack lies in short stack poker and what to look for when playing this way, get a copy of "Short Stack Ninja" by Chris Wallace

Certainly a credible argument can be made in support of a shove, but having played in bar tournaments, I would like to have a bit more information than what
was provided in the original post.

This is EXACTLY how villain wants you to play. And, he hopes you do it again next orbit, too.

Based on the above, I would argue, stack sizes being equal, there is an upside to set-mining against two opponents by calling a min-raise versus jamming, which creates a scenario where you are likely flipping for stacks.

 

[upNdown]

This is EXACTLY how villain wants you to play. And, he hopes you do it again next orbit, too.

Based on the above, I would argue, stack sizes being equal, there is an upside to set-mining against two opponents by calling a min-raise versus jamming, which creates a scenario where you are likely flipping for stacks.

I agree with both you guys. Which is why I'm probably folding. But I could certainly live with any of those three options.

 

[Senzrock]

here is an upside to set-mining against two opponents by calling a min-raise versus jamming, which creates a scenario where you are likely flipping for stacks

I think this misunderstands the situation a bit though. The point of the shove is that your opponent really can only call off against our 17bbs with a very premium range. He will be folding hands like QJ for example (at least he definitely should in theory). That's the power of the shove. It picks up 4bbs *without* having to take any flips the vast majority of the time. And the times that we do have to flip, OK, we have a small edge + dead money in the middle which makes it a profitable spot even then. 17bbs we are simply not deep enough to call off 2bbs to set mine when we hit sets 1 in 10 times and are up against an aggressive player who will put us in jail on most flops.

 

[grebe]

I think this misunderstands the situation a bit though. The point of the shove is that your opponent really can only call off against our 17bbs with a very premium range. He will be folding hands like QJ for example (at least he definitely should in theory). That's the power of the shove. It picks up 4bbs *without* having to take any flips the vast majority of the time. And the times that we do have to flip, OK, we have a small edge + dead money in the middle which makes it a profitable spot even then. 17bbs we are simply not deep enough to call off 2bbs to set mine when we hit sets 1 in 10 times and are up against an aggressive player who will put us in jail on most flops.

He gets it.

 

[Senzrock]

Interestingly enough, in our heads we assume that just calling out of the bb with 55 is the lower variance play. In fact, it is a much higher variance play, as the original post actually shows. You want lower variance and less stress in these spots? Shove pre! It makes sense when you think about it.

Now of course, when people say this is a lower variance route, what they often have in mind is 1. calling pre 2. folding on almost every flop. That though, unfortunately, is an expensive mindset in poker when you take that line over and over again over the course of years of playing. And this is where math + some game theory can really help us all develop our games. Gaining +4 bbs instead of losing -2 bbs in spots like these is just SO important when it comes to tournaments. It literally can move us from a break even or losing player to a profitable player.

 

[Mojo1312]

Again, the setting matters. Reversing roles. I can see myself calling a shove from the BB with Q/J in a bar tournament.

Which is why I think additional details matter.

 

[Senzrock]

Again, the setting matters. Reversing roles. I can see myself calling a shove from the BB with Q/J in a bar tournament.

Which is why I think additional details matter.

You think you are calling 17bbs with QJ here to a shove from a decent player? Hmmm... that is probably a bit light. Maybe at a bar game where you are having a good time and don't care too much, but I bet you find a fold more often than you think when you consider the bb's shoving range. Would you call 17bbs in a tournament that mattered to you? Like the money bubble of a major tournament?

 

[grebe]

Again, the setting matters. Reversing roles. I can see myself calling a shove from the BB with Q/J in a bar tournament.

Which is why I think additional details matter.

As hero, I am ok with my play here even if you call.
You fold: I pick up the pot...now I have 20+ big blinds.
You call: I am 50/50 against your hand....where I doblle up and have a stack that I can win with, or I go home.

Calling to hit 2 outs is not a good play this shallow. Cash game, completely different beast.

 

[upNdown]

I think this misunderstands the situation a bit though. The point of the shove is that your opponent really can only call off against our 17bbs with a very premium range. He will be folding hands like QJ for example (at least he definitely should in theory). That's the power of the shove. It picks up 4bbs *without* having to take any flips the vast majority of the time. And the times that we do have to flip, OK, we have a small edge + dead money in the middle which makes it a profitable spot even then. 17bbs we are simply not deep enough to call off 2bbs to set mine when we hit sets 1 in 10 times and are up against an aggressive player who will put us in jail on most flops.

I think you're over-simplifying things if you just want to label a flat here as BAD. No, I'm not set mining in a crappy preflop position where somebody can come back over the top, and I'm not setmining for a bigger raise. But I'm in the big blind here, and I can close the betting by paying one more bb to potentially win six and see a flop with a pair? It isn't so bad.

 

[Frogzilla]

The theory behind why 55 is a reshove is sound but it’s hard to exploit someone post flop if they don’t have any decisions post flop.

If the planned exploit was folding to the high freq cbet on every flop that doesn’t have a 5 though…well that’s a terrible exploit, just shove pre. Flat is fine but got to be solid post because it is not easy OOP.

 

[grebe]

I think you're over-simplifying things if you just want to label a flat here as BAD. No, I'm not set mining in a crappy preflop position where somebody can come back over the top, and I'm not setmining for a bigger raise. But I'm in the big blind here, and I can close the betting by paying one more bb to potentially win six and see a flop with a pair? It isn't so bad.

I agree with this....only because hero is BB. In SB, it is less good. As a cold call, you are throwing away chips.

It still does not make it the MOST +EV thing....which is shoving. It's just a perfect spot.

 

[upNdown]

the MOST +EV thing....which is shoving. It's just a perfect spot.

yup

 

[Mojo1312]

It may be a leak to flat call from the BB or to call an all in by the BB with Q/J. I am basing my actions on the fact that we are playing six handed in a bar tournament. Under the circumstances, Q/J is not a bad hand to go to war with against the BB where it costs 15 to win 36.

What combination of hands are you giving the BB credit for having? What are the dynamics? Does a min-raise indicate weakness or strength? How many BB's does maniac have? Are the other players weak and playing with shorter stacks?

Textbook play may call for a shove. But I would like to know more about stack sizes and the cast of characters at the table.

 

[Eriks]

If we can’t profitably setmine I would rather just fold pre. It may be correct to shove in theory, but I think a ”maniac player” in a bar tournament is going to snap off that shove with a lot more overcards combos than we’d like

 

[Mojo1312]

If we can’t profitably setmine I would rather just fold pre. It may be correct to shove in theory, but I think a ”maniac player” in a bar tournament is going to snap off that shove with a lot more overcards combos than we’d like

Surprising how often maniacs get married to combo hands containing a Jack. K/J, Q/J, 10/J, 9/J. Sooted? Fuggedaboutit.