Donkey move? (2 Viewers)

[legonick]

It may be a leak to flat call from the BB or to call an all in by the BB with Q/J. I am basing my actions on the fact that we are playing six handed in a bar tournament. Under the circumstances, Q/J is not a bad hand to go to war with against the BB where it costs 15 to win 36.

What combination of hands are you giving the BB credit for having? What are the dynamics? Does a min-raise indicate weakness or strength? How many BB's does maniac have? Are the other players weak and playing with shorter stacks?

Textbook play may call for a shove. But I would like to know more about stack sizes and the cast of characters at the table.

A bit more color here which I left out of the original accidentally, but may play into thoughts on the move.

The maniac had a stack. I don't know how big, but he was running it up, mostly from people folding to his bets on later streets. Let's guess at 30 BB for this exercise.

The other more important information is the SB. The SB is a trappy nit, who I've personally seen trapping with AA. Several games prior I had way overfolded to him when he raised the flop, and sure enough, he ended up having AA. In that hand he had called someone else's min-bet. I've also seen him straight up limp into a pot with like 3 or 4 other players, then get all kinds of action, call it down, and turn over the winner (somewhat luckily) with AA. In that case another player did all the betting for him and drove everyone else out of the hand. The other guy had something like QK and hit the K.

So maybe this factors into a little more fear into a jam. It's not just a jam against the maniac....

On a different topic, is bar league poker that bad? Yes, there are lots of things "bad" about it, but looking at the league stuff, it seems like the people on the top are the better TAG players. They typically have a tight rep. and lots of aggression and will switch later in the tournament to use up the rep. capital by making aggressive moves with much more marginal hands. I guess what I'm getting at is, I think it's a decent setting for practicing for home games possibly (although the structure is bad). Most home games are probably "bad" too, unless playing at nose bleed stakes. But it's not good for practice for WSOP deepstack events, or grinding cash at a card room or casino.

 

[MrCatPants]

They hate JJ though

 

[legonick]

Surprising how often maniacs get married to combo hands containing a Jack. K/J, Q/J, 10/J, 9/J. Sooted? Fuggedaboutit.

Dude so true! This particular maniac is kind of known for punting off with draws. He's not high ranked in the league despite basically making every game. He's usually either go big or go home quite early in the tournament, VS the top of the league where the #1 player is usually at the final table with a stack, and the #2 is usually at the final table (probably goes for #2-#5) but not often with a big stack.

 

[Mojo1312]

They hate JJ though

So true! Hilarious!

 

[grebe]

Textbook play may call for a shove. But I would like to know more about stack sizes and the cast of characters at the table.

Maniac player OTB, I'm in BB

This is all I need to know. His range on the button is super wide.

It may be correct to shove in theory, but I think a ”maniac player” in a bar tournament is going to snap off that shove with a lot more overcards combos than we’d like

He may very well call, but he would be incorrect to do so. Fundamental theory of poker from Sklansky: whenever an opponent makes a play different than if he could know our cards, we win. Whenever we would make a play different than if we knew his hole cards, we lose. If I were on the button with QJo and I could see that my opponent had 55 in the big blind, I would open shove...definitely not min-raise then call off an all in. So....based on the fundamental theory of poker, we have caught our opponent in a mistake. Whether he wins or loses that specific hand, we win because we caused him to make the bigger mistake.

ALSO remember: sometimes we win this, then we have 34 big blinds and can be very dangerous. The only two cards we don't want button to call with are over pairs, which there are very few of in comparison to all the other cards he could have in his range. Otherwise, you gotta be ok to flip sometimes in a tournament.

In tournament poker, as in war....you must be willing to die in order to live.

 

[upNdown]

Whether he wins or loses that specific hand, we win because we caused him to make the bigger mistake

Total tangent here but I reject that way of thinking, in regards to the late stages of tournament poker. All hands aren’t equal, as they are in the giant cash game of life.

 

[Senzrock]

I think you're over-simplifying things if you just want to label a flat here as BAD. No, I'm not set mining in a crappy preflop position where somebody can come back over the top, and I'm not setmining for a bigger raise. But I'm in the big blind here, and I can close the betting by paying one more bb to potentially win six and see a flop with a pair? It isn't so bad.

I hear you. But if we say we aren't simply set mining, what are we looking for on the flop? 432 rainbow? T96? KJ2? The truth is, if we don't flop a set, and an aggressive player Cbets - we are often just folding (a lot of which will be an incorrect fold). I guess my point is - are there other ways than the best way to play a certain spot? Sure! But I think we can agree that our aim should be to think of what would be the "best" play in a given spot. In this specific spot, 6-handed, where a loose player opens his button, it is a shove once we look down at 55. And listen, our shove is for a decent amount. Aggressive players love to *apply pressure* but they don't always love calling off light. I have seen aggressive player types raise huge amounts of $ with hands like J9s but then snap fold when you come over the top because that's when reality sets in a bit for them. Sometimes they even overfold hands like 66 because they aren't aware of hand ranges.

 

[grebe]

Total tangent here but I reject that way of thinking, in regards to the late stages of tournament poker. All hands aren’t equal, as they are in the giant cash game of life.

Player's fear of busting out is what makes the LAG play here so profitable. If you counter this with the resteal, showing him you have a hand you are willing to die with (whether you do or not), you win....long term and short term. Late stage tournament poker is where the LAG thrives and the TAG dies.

 

[upNdown]

Player's fear of busting out is what makes the LAG play here so profitable. If you counter this with the resteal, showing him you have a hand you are willing to die with (whether you do or not), you win....long term and short term. Late stage tournament poker is where the LAG thrives and the TAG dies.

Oh I know. And I’m probably shoving here more often than not. I guess the reason I keep arguing with you is I’m not comfortable with how certain you are of the right answers. I’m so much more interested in doing things by feel when it comes to live poker, especially tournament poker, especially ICM situations.
Of course we’re gonna try to follow the math or sklansky or GTO or whatever. But feel maters a lot, combined of course with the unknown details that @Mojo1312 is asking about.
Specifically here, as @Eriks suggests, you might be getting a lot more calls than you want. Folding is rarely wrong in these situations, and personally I’d rather shove with A5 than 55. Maybe even K5. Blah blah blah - all I’m trying to say is it’s worth discussing options here.

 

[Mojo1312]

Reading Grebe's posts, the optimal play here is to shove.

I am amazed at the skill level of poker players now compared to 5 years ago. I attribute this to the amount of time players devote to studying the game, whether online, reading strategy books or both.

I am arguably the laziest poker player who posts in these threads. I read and enjoyed "Every Hand Reaveled" by Gus Hansen around 12 years ago and have participted in strat threads posted on the blue wall and here and I have watched a couple of Brad Owen's videos because his name popped up a few times in various threads a while back.

Other than the above, nada. Zero. Can't carry on a meaningful conversation about GTO because I only know the words the acronym represents.

Lately, I have wondered how this will change home games. Will limit hold-em make a come back? Will NLHE only be played in tournaments? Will it disappear all together in favor of circus games?

Yes, the optimal play is to shove, but I am an old school near do well who still plays for the enjoyment and the additional challenges it presents now. Am I losing the advantages I previously held over a random field? Absolutely.

Will I crack a book or take time to read theory, study charts and analyze videos in order to remain profitable. Highly doubtful. NLHE is a game, a pastime, a way to socialize and have fun.

When the game reaches the point where everyone is a shark and the difference in size is measurable in inches rather than feet, I will happily swim off into the sunset.

 

[grebe]

I guess the reason I keep arguing with you is I’m not comfortable with how certain you are of the right answers. I’m so much more interested in doing things by feel when it comes to live poker, especially tournament poker, especially ICM situations.

My confidence comes from the fact that I study the game, and this is a topic I have dove in to recently. I even posted up my reference...."Short Stack Ninja" by Chris Wallace.

I actually highly recommend "Short Stack Ninja" for any tournament players. It has the math, but you don't need to know it. You can basically make yourself some flash cards for different stack sizes to know exactly what spots you are looking for based on where you are in the game. Super easy. It's a quick read, easy to implement in to your game, and it's cheap....like $10. You can also watch a video series of these points put into practice at Redchippoker.com....you have to pay $5/week to watch them though....totally great investment if you want to study the game we all love.

And until somebody gives me a good reason on why I am incorrect and some sound reasoning as to why this might be (being a "feel" player does not count), I will remain confident that this is a slam dunk jam it in his face....every time. I would make range charts to further prove my point, but I am pretty sure nobody would pay attention....because "the Q came on the flop and we would have lost anyways."

sigh.

 

[legonick]

My confidence comes from the fact that I study the game, and this is a topic I have dove in to recently. I even posted up my reference...."Short Stack Ninja" by Chris Wallace.

I actually highly recommend "Short Stack Ninja" for any tournament players. It has the math, but you don't need to know it. You can basically make yourself some flash cards for different stack sizes to know exactly what spots you are looking for based on where you are in the game. Super easy. It's a quick read, easy to implement in to your game, and it's cheap....like $10. You can also watch a video series of these points put into practice at Redchippoker.com....you have to pay $5/week to watch them though....totally great investment if you want to study the game we all love.

And until somebody gives me a good reason on why I am incorrect and some sound reasoning as to why this might be (being a "feel" player does not count), I will remain confident that this is a slam dunk jam it in his face....every time. I would make range charts to further prove my point, but I am pretty sure nobody would pay attention....because "the Q came on the flop and we would have lost anyways."

sigh.

I need to pick that book up! I haven't done much studying on the book side yet. I know there are good threads on here about what a good "poker library" looks like. Anyways, yeah, just need the time.

Clarification question - are we talking jamming pre-flop over the maniac open and SB call, or jamming on the maniacs c-bet on the flop after SB folds?

 

[grebe]

Clarification question - are we talking jamming pre-flop over the maniac open and SB call, or jamming on the maniacs c-bet on the flop after SB folds?

This would be all in preflop. Call pre then donk jamming on the flop would be a horrible idea.

 

[Moxie Mike]

It's kind of difficult to apply a lot of logic to a bar tournament when people are there primarily for social reasons and there's often no entry fee and no money to be won. I don't know if there was a cash prize here, but in general, people don't really give a shit if they win or lose in these events.

So if you want to win at a higher rate than the donks, a TAG strategy is about the only way to beat the field consistently. Player reading and charts and all that still matters, but much less than it would in a more competitive environment.

As to the hand, you described the Button as a 'maniac' but there's nothing maniacal about a min open from the button with a wide range. Maniacal would be if he'd instacall off 60% of his stack with Q-hi pre.

Just because you've seen the SB sandbag huge hands doesn't mean he's a trappy nit. It's probably more likely that he's a weak/passive, risk-averse (he's in a bar league after all) player who doesn't have a great understanding of tournament dynamics. So just because he defended his SB to a min-raise with a player yet to act doesn't automatically mean he's got a monster. It's much more likely that he just holds a reasonable hand to take a flop with. It's safe to assume his calling range (if you jam) is very narrow.

The case for jamming pre depends on the Button's propensity to fold. If he's wild and reckless, then jamming = -EV since HERO should be trying to avoid flips with a 17BB stack. If HERO's stack was <10BBs then this is as good a spot as any to get it in and hope for the best, especially in a tournament with a fast structure and a 6-handed table.

So if HERO can confidently induce two folds with a jam, that's most appropriate. If not, a call is fine. HERO is getting 5:1 to call closing the action with two opponents to potentially pay you off if HERO spikes a set. I'm never advocating a fold here although there's an argument in favor of it I guess.

A is pretty favorable for HERO's hand. Checking after the SB checked is standard. No reason to get cute in a game like this. Villain's smallish bet doesn't mean much if he's as maniacal as the description in the OP. If HERO was ahead pre he's probably still ahead. A call seems OK but if Villain bets the turn HERO will need to shut it down and proceed with a 14BB stack.

The case for jamming the flop is the same as jamming pre - HERO probably holds the best hand and would like to induce a fold. Villain's calling range has to be pretty narrow since this flop will miss his hand most of the time. But jamming is problematic because it's the play that carries the highest risk of ruin. If the Villain calls, best case scenario is HERO is flipping against two overs and a FD. But in most circumstances, HERO is crushed by all of Villain's calling range.

So jamming the flop is -EV for the same reason it's -EV to jam preflop.

As played, why check the turn? You've already began telling the story with the flop c/r - no reason to keep that last round in the chamber...