Early stage tournament hand (1 Viewer)

[ushallnotraise]

1st level of the Borgata Almighty Stack. 100k starting stacks, level is 100/200/25. Villain has been hyper aggro right from the gate, but knows what he doing, and although there are 8 stacks on the table we are playing 4 handed. Everyone still has near the starting stack of 100k.

Villain raises UTG to 500, Folds to Hero in the BB who calls with .

First point to make: Hero defends very wide in the BB, feels very comfortable playing post-flop.

Flop:

Hero checks.
Villain bets 900
Hero raises 2200
Villain raises 5600

At this point villain has cbet 100% of the time.

Hero: ??????

 

[Jimulacrum]

Fold.

Even if K4 is good here (and I doubt it is), we'd still have to play two more streets out of position in what has become a very large pot. And even if we improve on the very next card, we won't want to see a lot of action.

Especially with nosebleed stacks like this, there are far better spots in hold'em.

 

[DrStrange]

Unless Hero has a massive amount of data to prove otherwise, playing K4o defending against a UTG raise at a full table is a mistake. UTG isn't stealing the blinds, he is betting for value with a hand much better than Hero's. Just because Hero is comfortable doesn't mean the play has a positive expected value.

Fold preflop. Fold now. Fear the RIO risks. Hero has, at best a bluff catcher.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Unless Hero has a massive amount of data to prove otherwise, playing K4o defending against a UTG raise at a full table is a mistake. UTG isn't stealing the blinds, he is betting for value with a hand much better than Hero's. Just because Hero is comfortable doesn't mean the play has a positive expected value.

Fold preflop. Fold now. Fear the RIO risks. Hero has, at best a bluff catcher.

It's not a full table, though. It's 4-handed.

Still not 100% sure I'd want to defend with K4o, but it's not as automatic a fold as it would be at a full table.

 

[DrStrange]

That is true, I missed the fact that there were four dead stacks at the table. It is four handed, not eight handed. UTG could easily be trying to steal the blinds.

 

[Adam Crowley]

I'm sure defending K4o 500bb deep isn't that bad against a wide opening range.

I have a couple of questions

1. Do you think you have an edge post flop vs this player

2. What was your plan for this hand postflop oop?

3. Does the player have any other tendencies you think you can exploit? For example does he cbet too much, over play draws to much, always barrels when checked to?

4. I'm not automatically disagreeing with your flop line, what was your reason for c/r this flop?

The only other point I would make is your 500bb deep. Even if you win the pot in this position, your stack utility doesn't change. I can't think of anyway you could get into a big pot 500bb deep and feel comfortable about your position, K4o is just super unplayable. For this reason alone I would fold here.

Without the answers to the questions I definitely prefer check calling on this flop and evaluating on the turn. You need a really good idea of the opponents turn play to decide how to play. My plan would be to fold to a turn bet if we didn't improve our hand.

 

[joker80]

Fold pre flop. Fold now

 

[stocky]

I don't mind the call pre but would vote fold there too.

Flop.

Check/call>check/fold (close between the 2)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>check/raise

 

[Jimulacrum]

Check/call>check/fold (close between the 2)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>check/raise

Yeah, check/call is at the top of my list against a hyper-aggressive opponent. Takes advantage of his over-aggression and simultaneously controls pot size.

Top pair is a decent hand, but with this kicker and nothing else going on for it, it's a three-street bluff-catcher.

We could be seeing a showdown for 5,600 chips instead of a flop 3-bet, against an opponent whose range is a lot wider than it is in this spot. Instead we're stuck with this annoying decision when position still matters and there are a lot more chips to be bet.

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

Pre seems like an easy fold. I'm probably 3b as a resteal before I'm calling. K4o is a terrible hand to have to play OOP.

Flop seems like a standard call. Might check call brick turns too.

As played I'm folding.

 

[ushallnotraise]

Alrighty. Let's get to it.

I think the pre-flop call is super standard given the situation, especially since we are 4 handed, and I feel very comfortable playing post flop.

Everyone is saying fold, which initially seems pretty standard. Villain has been aggressive since the beginning, but is a very competent player. He has a 100% Cbet percentage so far, and no one has played back at him. I think the c/r line is better because I know he's betting at 100% of the flops that is checked to him.

The 3bet honestly makes this hand easier for me, because the 3bet just doesn't really make much sense. What is villain re-raising with here? 22/77/KK/AA are the only hands where he would(should) do this. You could maybe make the argument for AK as well, especially with the Ad. Also, the only reason he should really be 3betting is if he puts me on a FD, so I don't think there is really any hand where it's a good play to 3bet in order to extract value. So if he isn't trying for value, I feel like it's a complete bluff. His range is pretty polarized after a 3bet.

1. Do you think you have an edge post flop vs this player

2. What was your plan for this hand postflop oop?

3. Does the player have any other tendencies you think you can exploit? For example does he cbet too much, over play draws to much, always barrels when checked to?

4. I'm not automatically disagreeing with your flop line, what was your reason for c/r this flop?

1. Yes

2. It's all situational

3. He has a 100% cbet percentage so far

4. Because of his hyper aggressive nature, I'm always c/r top pair here for value.

Hero calls.

Flop: Turn:

Pot: 11,800

Hero checks
Villain bets 7,700

Hero: ????

 

[DrStrange]

This isn't a detective novel where every so often the author slips in a new clue that moves the story along. If Hero has a villain read, it belongs in the OP not spread out through out the thread. But if we are going to have a thread like a detective novel, let's have fun.

Hero Jams all in. Villain tanks for a while, staring intently at the dealer and the deck. Then he calls.

Hero doesn't know it but the dealer and villain have a side deal. Dealer peels off the , perhaps off the bottom of the deck making the board

Hero tables for top pair no kicker expecting to take down the 10,000BB pot.

Villain looks at Hero hand for a while, then prepares to muck sayings, "It is your pot bro . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . except I have the " and villain tables for the winning hand.

Hero sits there stunned at his misfortune, not leaving the table even after being asked to go.

A strange woman strides up to the table asking what is going on. As the dealer starts to explain, the old man sitting in the small blind peels off his rubber mask and produces a flashing gaming commission badge.

"What kind of game are you running here?" he asks. "That dealer is notorious throughout the old West as a bottom dealing cheater!" "And Villain is a real life villain, wanted dead or alive in poker room everywhere"

Villain pulls out a small box which emits a faint purple ray that disembowels the official from the gaming commission. "Anyone else have a problem?" after a moment he bobs his head and says "I thought not"

Hero has taken advantage of the confusion and slid SB's chips in front of him. It seems no one notices. Hero then slips the tournament official a two dollar bill and asks for a table change. "This dead guy stinks like shit, I'd like to move somewhere else." Happy to have a reason to leave the table, the official racks up "Hero's" chips and off he goes to a better place and time.

Alls well that ends well -=- DrStrange

PS as for the hand in the thread. I vote fold unless Hero has some more new information that will prove helpful.

 

[ushallnotraise]

I think the only part I missed in OP is the 100% cbet %. OP edited to include.

 

[DrStrange]

If villain is playing something like 75% of the hands for a raise preflop {which is what I'd call hyper aggressive in a 4 handed game}, knowing he has a 100% cbet rate is vital. We also don't know the sample size - this could be something like the third hand of the event. But maybe hero and villain have history. Or maybe hero hasn't ever seen villain before, making the read less reliable.

We also don't have data about villain's post flop play. And perhaps there isn't any data if Hero hasn't played with villain before and it is the first orbit of the tournament.

My fear for Hero is he will get stubborn with a weak holding a commit more chips to the pot drawing thin or dead. If he is basing this line on a tiny sample from the first few minutes of the tournament, then that is a compounding error.

Thing is - all of this information is in Hero's possession but not ours, making it hard to offer advice.

My bottom line - - - if this villain is going to play a maniac style, let's take our time and set traps. The stacks are 5,000 BB deep. Hero can afford to let villain steal a lot of blinds in exchange for one huge hand where villain gets trapped in a big pot.

 

[ushallnotraise]

The 100% cbet was all I really missed, there's no other solid reads. I was tired last night after being in AC for a week and missed putting it in. Other than that there's no real history, about 25 minutes into the first level, but we've seen a lot of hands because of it being 4 handed.

 

[Whiteside]

I think I would have folded the hand pre-flop, bet 2/3 of the pot after the flop and folded to a raise and then definitely folded after villains bet on the turn. The way the hand is going looks like a way to lose a lot of chips.

 

[thorwilliam]

Check-raising the flop is a huge mistake. You say you do it for value, what exactly are you trying to get value from?

 

[ushallnotraise]

Check-raising the flop is a huge mistake. You say you do it for value, what exactly are you trying to get value from?

7x, 88-QQ.

Let me ask this: If Hero had QQ is it reasonable to c/r that board? If it is, then why is c/r with Kx such a mistake?

 

[thorwilliam]

7x, 88-QQ.

Let me ask this: If Hero had QQ is it reasonable to c/r that board? If it is, then why is c/r with Kx such a mistake?

It's not reasonable to c/r QQ on that board either. Why do you think so?

 

[ushallnotraise]

It's not reasonable to c/r QQ on that board either. Why do you think so?

Villain could

1. Know his table image and believe he is just being played back at
2. Put us on FD
3. Call with 88-QQ
4. Call with FD

 

[thorwilliam]

Villain could

1. Know his table image and believe he is just being played back at
2. Put us on FD
3. Call with 88-QQ
4. Call with FD

He could, but it is more likely that he has air or have us crushed. Why would you not call and let him continue with his bluffs instead of building a big pot oop with a marginal hand against a good agressive opponent?

 

[Jimulacrum]

We barely have a hand. It's not nothing, but it's weak and almost incapable of improving. If stacks were 30 BB deep or something like that, by all means, check-raise shove with TPNK against the guy who c-bets 100%.

But in this spot, starting 500 BB deep, this play is madness. Even if he does have a hand like 88 through QQ or 7x that will maybe pay off our check-raise, where does that leave us on subsequent rounds? We get our 11 BB worth of value and then have to play a bloated pot OOP against a Villain with a mega-wide range with over 480 BB behind.

Mega-deep-stacked poker plays differently from typical tournament poker. There's just no place for hands like K4o OOP, unless your goal is to win some kind of RIO record.

 

[ushallnotraise]

I'll reply more here in a few, but it's 500bb deep, not 5,000.

 

[ushallnotraise]

The turn bet makes very little sense to me and here's why.

What does Villain 3bet with on the flop? Doing it with a flush draw is just a huge spew and, as stated, while villain is very aggressive he's a competent player. So at this point when villain bets I am almost certain we are ahead. There's no reason he'd fire again with a set or overpair when a draw hits on the turn. The story makes no sense. On the flop villain could conceivably have TPTK, a set, AA, air, and very rarely a flush draw. The only hands I can reasonably see 3betting on the flop is a set and AA, however the 3bet on the flop makes me believe that it was a bluff to begin with. My thought process is that this is the first time villain has been played back at after cbetting 100% of the time and is just trying to show that he won't be pushed around, and that he isn't always just cbetting with air.

Essentially, whatever he was representing on the flop is not a hand to be betting on the turn when the 3rd diamond comes out, yet he still fires another barrel. It isn't adding up to me.

Hero calls.


Flop: Turn: River:

Pot: 27,200

Hero checks

Now, pre-flop, flop and turn villain would spend a few seconds coming up with a bet size, grab his chips and put them into the middle. This time however villain takes about 15 seconds longer before grabbing chips. He then counts out a bet and sets his chips to the right of his stack. He looks at them, looks back at his stack, looks at the chips, sits there for about 20 seconds before placing his bet across the line.


Villain bets 11,600

Hero: ????

 

[Jimulacrum]

Essentially, whatever he was representing on the flop is not a hand to be betting on the turn when the 3rd diamond comes out, yet he still fires another barrel. It isn't adding up to me.

Villain doesn't need to have a set or an overpair. If he's raising liberally preflop, he could have multiple possible two-pair hands, an overpair, a set, and many other hands. It's crazy to put him on bare air based on this line. Sometimes LAGs hit real hands and play them strongly, expecting their opponents to play sheriff.

When the obvious draw comes in, it doesn't mean we hit the draw. Remember, we're heads-up. It's not like a 4- or 5-handed pot where someone is all but guaranteed to have the flush. If I have a big hand in Villain's shoes, I'm betting that turn all day to protect myself against one-card flushes. Not only that, but again, he's expecting us to play sheriff. This is not to mention that our line on the flop indicates a made hand, which would rule out the flush.

Let's also not forget how small Villain's 3-bet was on the flop. He may have been trying to cheaply take the lead with a flush draw so he could take a free card if the diamond didn't come in. But now it comes in, so he continues his aggressive line, and we're all confused, thinking it should be a scare card for him.

Or he just had us beat in the first place. This is just not a good spot. We have become a sticky villain, playing a 100+ BB pot OOP with a really marginal hand that we could've escaped for 11 BB.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'll reply more here in a few, but it's 500bb deep, not 5,000.

I carried that in from DrStrange's post without checking the math. Fixed in my post.

The hand is still extremely deep-stacked for a tournament, though. It should be played more like a cash-game hand than a tournament hand.

 

[Whiteside]

This hand looks to be heading in the direction where you win a large pot because the villain was bluffing. But your bets don't appear to be optimal without knowing that

 

[Adam Crowley]

What is the buyin to this tournament?

Not super relevant, but it may just be that this poker is played on a level far beyond my comprehension for the game.

Taking into account the new information from my questions above, my plan for the hand (given the situation) is to play my hand on its merit.

On the flop I think it's very reasonable to assume that we have the best hand against villains range. Out of the options I think check calling > raising > folding.

Raising will isolate our hand against the stronger part of villains range. from villains point of view we have very few value hands when we c/r this flop. The only hands I can think of is K7 and AK with the Ad and sometimes sets.

I would only ever take this line if I had a read that villain goes bananas in c/r pots.

If you ck call flop and the turn is a diamond, there is a fair chance that the turn goes ck ck and you get to showdown your hand cheap.

I understand that villains is not repping much but neither are we, we are also OOP which means villain can make more informed decisions than we can. I think vs this player type I would elect to check call all of my value hands, giving villain a chance to keep bluffing, and to give us the best chance of showing down a medium strength hands as cheap as possible.

 

[stocky]

The 3bet honestly makes this hand easier for me, because the 3bet just doesn't really make much sense. What is villain re-raising with here? 22/77/KK/AA are the only hands where he would(should) do this. You could maybe make the argument for AK as well, especially with the Ad. Also, the only reason he should really be 3betting is if he puts me on a FD, so I don't think there is really any hand where it's a good play to 3bet in order to extract value. So if he isn't trying for value, I feel like it's a complete bluff. His range is pretty polarized after a 3bet.

No. Hyper LAG could easily have K2+, basically any of the 2 pair combos that have us beat that is trying to extract value from your possible flush draw.

 

[200 Motels]

1st level of the Borgata Almighty Stack. 100k starting stacks, level is 100/200/25. Villain has been hyper aggro right from the gate, but knows what he doing, and although there are 8 stacks on the table we are playing 4 handed. Everyone still has near the starting stack of 100k.

Villain raises UTG to 500, Folds to Hero in the BB who calls with .

First point to make: Hero defends very wide in the BB, feels very comfortable playing post-flop.

Flop:

Hero checks.
Villain bets 900
Hero raises 2200
Villain raises 5600

At this point villain has cbet 100% of the time.

Hero: ??????

I think this should have gone: check/call cbet on flop, check/call turn, check/call river. Keeps pot small in a questionable spot. They call it, small ball.