Exposed hand flopped overfull - villian representing quads. WWYD? (2 Viewers)

[Moxie Mike]

I was not in this hand or even at the table when the following occurred but I thought it was interesting. Thus I am repeating the story as I heard it.

$1/$2 NLHE in a casino.

Relevant stacks:

BB: $162
Hero - UTG+1: $900ish
Button: $1600ish

Reads: Button is a LAG, occasionally reckless, yet clearly a thinking-type player. VPIP in the 30% range. Definitely splashy, but cautious with good players. It is unknown how familiar hero is with button's table image or playing style.

Action: Hero opens to $12 with QQ. Folds to button who calls, as does the BB.

Flop comes Q-6-6.

BB open shove his last $150. Hero snap calls, then tables his flopped full house, failing to realize that there was still action on the button.

Hero apologizes to the table and sheepishly turns his cards back over, fully aware button saw what he held.

"well, I guess I'm all in." Button says rather casually.

Hero's move? Thoughts in general?

 

[cwebb]

Button announced the allin, not hero, right? Hero is only in for 150 so far and at least he has an out lol

 

[Frogzilla]

BB open shoved 150 into 40?

And then Button is shoving into a dry side pot against the 2nd nuts?!

This is super weird.

 

[JWC]

Once he called in turn, his play is a call. The raise at that point is invalid.

 

[BSteck]

I think you might have a typo... I think this

"well, I guess I'm all in." Hero says rather casually.

should be this?

"well, I guess I'm all in." Button says rather casually.

 

[ruskba]

Once he called in turn, his play is a call. The raise at that point is invalid.

I think there’s a typo in the OP, button shoved after Hero’s call.

 

[Dr. Matt]

That would make sense. But also could make sense that the question is rather, which of hero’s actions plays...the call or the subsequent all-in. Which would still give the button the chance to all-in with his quads. Making it interesting.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think you might have a typo... I think this

"well, I guess I'm all in." Hero says rather casually.

should be this?

"well, I guess I'm all in." Button says rather casually.

I think there’s a typo in the OP, button shoved after Hero’s call.

Sorry... I even re-read it before posting and still missed that.

Yes to clarify Hero flatted the $150, then the button shoved (setting Hero all-in) after seeing Hero's hole cards.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think as hero I call. Top of my range obviously with my hand tabled. I am literally only worried about one combo, I think unless I can assume villian is a never bluffer (like old man coffee type, not a LAG) he doesn't have to be making the move that often for this call to be good.

Not to mention BB is going to have a 6 rather frequently himself given the action, blocking the one combo that beats us.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I think as hero I call. Top of my range obviously with my hand tabled. I am literally only worried about one combo, I think unless I can assume villian is a never bluffer (like old man coffee type, not a LAG) he doesn't have to be making the move that often for this call to be good.

Not to mention BB is going to have a 6 rather frequently himself given the action, blocking the one combo that beats us.

I was thinking the same thing that there is a decent enough chance BB has one of the 6’s that this has to be a call.

Very strange hand all around. From the huge over shove by BB to the hand being exposed to the Button going all in trying to rep exactly only 1 possible hand that beat Hero.

This feels more like a contrived “what if” type hand than something that really happened.

 

[JustinInMN]

I am thinking the open shove sizing may not be accurate given the OP is conceding it's all second hand info.

 

[Mr Tree]

Can I tackle this from another perspective? What do we believe the villain’s perception of hero is? Has hero shown a big lay down or been playing passive?

There are only two alternatives here. Either villain is bluffing and thinks hero can make a big laydown or he has quads. If he is bluffing in this situation I would think he has to have seen some anecdotal evidence that convinced him hero is capable of making a fold of this caliber. If hero has done anything that would give him a perception that he might be sticky there is no way villain can make this bet without the goods.

So what is the table perception of hero?

 

[Moxie Mike]

Can I tackle this from another perspective? What do we believe the villain’s perception of hero is? Has hero shown a big lay down or been playing passive?

There are only two alternatives here. Either villain is bluffing and thinks hero can make a big laydown or he has quads. If he is bluffing in this situation I would think he has to have seen some anecdotal evidence that convinced him hero is capable of making a fold of this caliber. If hero has done anything that would give him a perception that he might be sticky there is no way villain can make this bet without the goods.

So what is the table perception of hero?

All valid questions but I have no perspective to offer.

I am thinking the open shove sizing may not be accurate given the OP is conceding it's all second hand info.

I am only relaying the story as it was told to me yesterday, by a player who was at the table at the time and witnessed the hand. The hand in question took place Thursday so I trust his recollection of the details.

As to whether it's conjecture or not, the details are specific enough and the individual is credible enough that I believe his story, and quite frankly he'd have no motivation to fabricate a story like that.

 

[Mr Tree]

I mean in a vacuum I don’t think I can set the queens down. Especially with the open jam, which means a six is plausible. My question to myself here would be completely about how I think villain perceives my play to this point. I think that would be the only thing that could lead me to set it down. If I’ve shown anything that portrays me as being sticky or made a tough call on someone then I’m not sure how this is a bluff. Unfortunately I feel the context of understanding my table image is a profound part of this decision.

 

[JustinInMN]

As to whether it's conjecture or not, the details are specific enough and the individual is credible enough that I believe his story, and quite frankly he'd have no motivation to fabricate a story like that.

To be clear I did not mean to suggest a fabrication, just maybe remembering incorrectly the amount of the open shove. 5x pot just seems weird. Maybe the pot was somehow bigger pf?

 

[Beakertwang]

Perhaps a stupid question:

Would the prematurely exposed hand be dead in a tourney?

 

[BGinGA]

No. Warning issued afterwards, perhaps, but not grounds for killing the hand.

 

[Moxie Mike]

To be clear I did not mean to suggest a fabrication, just maybe remembering incorrectly the amount of the open shove. 5x pot just seems weird. Maybe the pot was somehow bigger pf?

Dunno man. Like I said... I wasn't there so I know nothing of the personalities in question. But while open shoving massive overbets isn't normal and usually isn't correct... It's not exactly a rarity either.

 

[colter ripton]

How can he be bluffing though? Does he really expect villian to lay down the qs.

I dont know I'd probably fold it.

 

[BGinGA]

It's a great play if you have no concern for $$. All the pressure is on the other guy, and you still have outs (maybe).

 

[DoubleEagle]

Perhaps a stupid question:

Would the prematurely exposed hand be dead in a tourney?

No. Never dead. Almost always will result in a penalty.

 

[abby99]

It's a great play if you have no concern for $$. All the pressure is on the other guy, and you still have outs (maybe).

It is a delicious spot to be in, though, if you're up against someone who's capable of making a big laydown.

 

[Moxie Mike]

So the one thing no one has mentioned that's a little surprising is the presence of a bad beat jackpot. Yes, this casino has one... The threshold is quads losing holding a pocket pair.

Does that influence you to call in Hero's spot?

 

[Dr. Matt]

I’d say yes it influences you. How could it not? Doesn’t mean it influences you enough to make the call...so the question is...

 

[BGinGA]

I'm calling, bbj or not.

 

[Anthony Martino]

So the one thing no one has mentioned that's a little surprising is the presence of a bad beat jackpot. Yes, this casino has one... The threshold is quads losing holding a pocket pair.

Does that influence you to call in Hero's spot?

I doubt that would be much of a consideration. Would need to know the BBJ amounts, and then calculate how much we're being laid to try and spike a 1-outer IF we are beat.

That being said, this is really an odd spot, but I think I would find it difficult to lay down my 2nd nuts here.

 

[Mr Tree]

Based on the information at hand call. I have to say I have run into a multitude of people capable of making this bluff in casinos so I think it’s probably an aggregate mistake to fold here. That being said this is still one that could use a lot of table context we simply aren’t able to get.

 

[Perthmike]

I can’t think of any good reason to jam if he has quads. I’m not happy about it but I’m never folding.

 

[WedgeRock]

*If* I have quads on the button, I'm not shoving into a dry sidepot, I'm trying to get more from hero.

Edit:. I guess the BBJ makes the shove a free roll for button if he's holding 66. But then, I don't really want to scare off a caller, so shoving is still weird.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Ok so here's the rest of the story...

Spoiler: Results

Last night I was playing at a local charity room when a gentleman with whom I have a decent amount of history playing against busts out of the tournament and takes a seat at the cash table two seats to my left.

We get to chatting and out of the blue he says: "Mike you're a good player... Tell me what you'd do in this situation from last night"... then goes on to describe the hand in question.

So the story in the OP came from the button himself. He went on to tell me that the guy with QQ tanked for a long time, then finally mucked.

My answer to him was that it was impossible for me to answer as to what I would do in that situation with the prior knowledge that he was capable of such a move.

He held Ace-6 suited. He never told me how the showdown with the EP player turned out, or what the QQ guy's reaction was when he tabled his hand.