First Cash game this week. Converting Tourney players. Thoughts? (1 Viewer)

[fishandchips]

I had a strong gang of poker pals, based around a weekly pub game (up to 9 players) and additional games at peoples houses. £10 buyin at the pub straight freezeout. £20 at home games, minimal re-buy(1/2 stack saver), £5 a head bounty sometimes. The pub game folded and then the home games too, people either didn't have the room for a game or didn't want a game in their house. My poker room filed up with project/work stuff.

My offer of a cash game this week has been well received by some, silence from others so far. Got enough (5) to run it, but I expect it to fill (10).

STRUCTURE: 10max, Blinds 10p/10p. Initial buy-in £10. Any time you are below or equal to £10, you may top up by £5. No matching to the big stack for now, I want to keep it small, make people earn their stacks, and don't want people turning up late and buying in big. Am thinking of allowing people to top up to 1/2 of what they had before the hand they just lost, eg a £50 stack who loses £40 on a hand can top up to £25 (with some rounding rules to keep it at £5 increments).

DEALING: We self dealt before. The core gang are competent, and we've always been strict on dealing procedures. But my table is 10 seater (2.1m/83inch) so dealing from the ends is far from ideal, and there might be newbies and even old hands who are wary of dealing a new format. I've decided I want either 1 or 2 player dealers, and there will be a dealer charge to cover that. I've spoken to one of the guys who used to run pub games and he's keen to help get this game going and will attend as often as he can, he will deal or share the deal with someone whenever he is there. I'm willing to deal if need be although prefer to just be bank/host/waiter.

FEES: As a principle I want players to cover costs rather than fund this game out of my pocket, I will already be putting in time and effort so don't want to put in cash as well. I will likely be a winning or break even player depending who keeps coming, my aims are not to profit from the game but I will be trying to win which sounds a bit like the same thing but it's not. The blinds are set just high enough for people to respect the game. Cards are consumables but I will cover those. I've written off the denominated chips I just bought for the game and I don't expect the players to cover my future customs. So I won't be charging for the poker. In another thread I said I would be charging for my whisky, getting some good feedback on that and am undecided. I want to be a good host, but not to the extent of running a weekly free bar.

INVITE METHOD: We are used to open invites, with first to reply "I'm in" gets a seat. I like open-ness generally but from reading al the comments I can see benefits to doing something more private, even just if the game is over subscribed I don't want those who live on their phone to be the only ones who get in. How do you handle private invites? If you got a message saying "Do you want to play next Tuesday, 7 in already" would you be offended? How about: "Next game Wednesday(5 days time), 12hrs to secure seat".

ACCEPTANCE: No-one has ever not turned up to a home tourney before, but the game theory is obvious: if there is no punishment just say yes even if only 10% chance you will attend. So I'm thinking that they send me the intial buy-in to secure the seat and it's non-refundable (money goes into some bonus pots). This deals with all the various ways people express their probability. The £10 wouldn't be buying you the right to cancel, it would be minimal compensation to the other players and you'd still be subject to further action.

Comments ?

 

[detroitdad]

STRUCTURE: 10max, Blinds 10p/10p. Initial buy-in £10. Any time you are below or equal to £10, you may top up by £5. No matching to the big stack for now, I want to keep it small, make people earn their stacks, and don't want people turning up late and buying in big. Am thinking of allowing people to top up to 1/2 of what they had before the hand they just lost, eg a £50 stack who loses £40 on a hand can top up to £25 (with some rounding rules to keep it at £5 increments).

I agree about not being able to add on up to the deep stack. In my game, I allow players to rebuy for up to half of the deep stack.

It sounds like you are making this more complicated that what it needs to be. If it works for you, great. I like to keep things simple. Here is how we do it.

My cash game buy in is $100.00's. I allow rebuys or add on's to be $100 bucks, or half of the deep stack. Most of my players rebuy at the $100 mark. There are only a few of us that take advantage of "half the deep stack rule".

DEALING: We self dealt before. The core gang are competent, and we've always been strict on dealing procedures. But my table is 10 seater (2.1m/83inch) so dealing from the ends is far from ideal, and there might be newbies and even old hands who are wary of dealing a new format. I've decided I want either 1 or 2 player dealers, and there will be a dealer charge to cover that. I've spoken to one of the guys who used to run pub games and he's keen to help get this game going and will attend as often as he can, he will deal or share the deal with someone whenever he is there. I'm willing to deal if need be although prefer to just be bank/host/waiter.

I am not a fan of paying dealers to deal a low stakes cash game. If the guys can't deal from the ends, have one of the players in the middle of the table deal for him. Just make sure you are using a dealer button.

FEES: As a principle I want players to cover costs rather than fund this game out of my pocket, I will already be putting in time and effort so don't want to put in cash as well. I will likely be a winning or break even player depending who keeps coming, my aims are not to profit from the game but I will be trying to win which sounds a bit like the same thing but it's not. The blinds are set just high enough for people to respect the game. Cards are consumables but I will cover those. I've written off the denominated chips I just bought for the game and I don't expect the players to cover my future customs. So I won't be charging for the poker. In another thread I said I would be charging for my whisky, getting some good feedback on that and am undecided. I want to be a good host, but not to the extent of running a weekly free bar.

I don't like charging players. Instead, I would ask players to donate snacks, drinks, ect....

INVITE METHOD: We are used to open invites, with first to reply "I'm in" gets a seat. I like open-ness generally but from reading al the comments I can see benefits to doing something more private, even just if the game is over subscribed I don't want those who live on their phone to be the only ones who get in. How do you handle private invites? If you got a message saying "Do you want to play next Tuesday, 7 in already" would you be offended? How about: "Next game Wednesday(5 days time), 12hrs to secure seat".

Sounds good. I wouldn't be offended. I send out invites to the guys that are reliable, play until at least midnight, and most importantly, guys that I have fun hanging out with.

ACCEPTANCE: No-one has ever not turned up to a home tourney before, but the game theory is obvious: if there is no punishment just say yes even if only 10% chance you will attend. So I'm thinking that they send me the intial buy-in to secure the seat and it's non-refundable (money goes into some bonus pots). This deals with all the various ways people express their probability. The £10 wouldn't be buying you the right to cancel, it would be minimal compensation to the other players and you'd still be subject to further action.

I wouldn't play if you asked for the money upfront to cover my buy in. I think this will lead to all kinds of problems. I have had players no show, or routinely cancel with late notice. I simply stop inviting them.

Clear and concise communication can help with this. Set your expectations with the group and politely let them know that if they cancel or no show it could lead to them not being invited back.

B

 

[HiveKueen]

Maybe offer a turbo tournament and a cash game after to entice the tourney players to give it a shot? I personally don't like cash cause I'm motivated by the prospect of winning. but I might give a turbo + cash a try.

 

[detroitdad]

I personally don't like cash cause I'm motivated by the prospect of winning

Interesting. I primarily play cash. I am very motivated to win.

 

[fishandchips]

I want to give pure cash a go, because I feel it will be better overall. I'm not certain of this though.

We have done some cash play but only after a tourney and it was always mixed games that most of us didn't understand and it was mad all-ins and gambling. I can understand why 'serious players' would not be attracted to the thought of 4 hours of that.

Elsewhere I've said what I don't like about freezeout tourneys even though my gang don't want to play anything else. Basically going somewhere and then having nothing to do when knocked out (or worse, having to sit and watch a bunch of people having fun in my house when I'm knocked out). The format encourages nitty play followed by the shove fest.

Re-buy tourneys will be my next attempt if cash fails to get established.

I am going to offer the carrot of alternating tourney & cash, and let the market decide. But not until people have indulged my experiment

 

[4SUMERZ]

Initially my home table was tourney style, but because it is cut throat, with no rebuys, those out early were forced to wait until the next game, waiting sometime hours to play again. We decided as a group to try cash game, and we have never had any itch to go back to tourney style. Unlimited buy in, 4.5 hours of play time.
No one makes a fortune or goes home poor. Our buy in is $25, with rebuys allowed once a stack get to $6 or less. One can only buy a max of $25 at a time.
We have 8 players, dealer choice between texas hold'em, pineapple and Omaha. 90% deals are hold'em. We change decks 3 times during the session.
We play twice a month at my game, once a week at a friends home game. The friend's home game is 95% Omaha.
We have fun as a group. I offer free drinks and lite snack at my game, but it's mostly soda and water. only 2 of us drink alcolol, so a few beer or a shot of whiskey is about the max each session. I don't mind footing the bill for that. At cash outs, most always round down to the nearest $5, so the house gets a few$$ from that here and there. All ins are typically when a player is down to a few chips....bigger raises are usually $5.

Good Luck with your game.

 

[Natskule]

I had a strong gang of poker pals, based around a weekly pub game (up to 9 players) and additional games at peoples houses. £10 buyin at the pub straight freezeout. £20 at home games, minimal re-buy(1/2 stack saver), £5 a head bounty sometimes. The pub game folded and then the home games too, people either didn't have the room for a game or didn't want a game in their house. My poker room filed up with project/work stuff.

My offer of a cash game this week has been well received by some, silence from others so far. Got enough (5) to run it, but I expect it to fill (10).

STRUCTURE: 10max, Blinds 10p/10p. Initial buy-in £10. Any time you are below or equal to £10, you may top up by £5. No matching to the big stack for now, I want to keep it small, make people earn their stacks, and don't want people turning up late and buying in big. Am thinking of allowing people to top up to 1/2 of what they had before the hand they just lost, eg a £50 stack who loses £40 on a hand can top up to £25 (with some rounding rules to keep it at £5 increments).

DEALING: We self dealt before. The core gang are competent, and we've always been strict on dealing procedures. But my table is 10 seater (2.1m/83inch) so dealing from the ends is far from ideal, and there might be newbies and even old hands who are wary of dealing a new format. I've decided I want either 1 or 2 player dealers, and there will be a dealer charge to cover that. I've spoken to one of the guys who used to run pub games and he's keen to help get this game going and will attend as often as he can, he will deal or share the deal with someone whenever he is there. I'm willing to deal if need be although prefer to just be bank/host/waiter.

FEES: As a principle I want players to cover costs rather than fund this game out of my pocket, I will already be putting in time and effort so don't want to put in cash as well. I will likely be a winning or break even player depending who keeps coming, my aims are not to profit from the game but I will be trying to win which sounds a bit like the same thing but it's not. The blinds are set just high enough for people to respect the game. Cards are consumables but I will cover those. I've written off the denominated chips I just bought for the game and I don't expect the players to cover my future customs. So I won't be charging for the poker. In another thread I said I would be charging for my whisky, getting some good feedback on that and am undecided. I want to be a good host, but not to the extent of running a weekly free bar.

INVITE METHOD: We are used to open invites, with first to reply "I'm in" gets a seat. I like open-ness generally but from reading al the comments I can see benefits to doing something more private, even just if the game is over subscribed I don't want those who live on their phone to be the only ones who get in. How do you handle private invites? If you got a message saying "Do you want to play next Tuesday, 7 in already" would you be offended? How about: "Next game Wednesday(5 days time), 12hrs to secure seat".

ACCEPTANCE: No-one has ever not turned up to a home tourney before, but the game theory is obvious: if there is no punishment just say yes even if only 10% chance you will attend. So I'm thinking that they send me the intial buy-in to secure the seat and it's non-refundable (money goes into some bonus pots). This deals with all the various ways people express their probability. The £10 wouldn't be buying you the right to cancel, it would be minimal compensation to the other players and you'd still be subject to further action.

Comments ?

At least in my opinion the key to a good cash game is having the right stakes. To little and people do stupid things, to high and people play scared. Tough to get it right to keep people coming back.

 

[4SUMERZ]

At least in my opinion the key to a good cash game is having the right stakes. To little and people do stupid things, to high and people play scared. Tough to get it right to keep people coming back.

That is a great point. Your blinds will dictate the aggressiveness at the table, as will your player compete levels. I'm lucky that all my players are reasonable and we all just want to play poker and enjoy the session. No one is there to play poker as a living.

 

[HiveKueen]

Interesting. I primarily play cash. I am very motivated to win.

I used to be a pro golfer. I like events with a beginning and an end with a winner. It is so instilled in me.

 

[LotsOfChips]

IMO the big draw for tournaments for many beginner players is that you know exactly how much money is at risk. With Cash Games, that amount can be 2-5 times larger, depending on the game and willingness to try to play to the end of the scheduled evening.

So if your group is willing to put in 20 (pounds - can't figure how to do the squiggly L) for a tournament buy in and maybe another 10-20 for a rebuy (you weren't clear on the rebuy cost), then you might want to find a way to make your cash game have similar risk. Your idea of a 10 initial buyin and top ups of 5 seems to hit that spot, so it sounds like most players should be okay with that.

If it were me, I would also consider adding some other games (Pineapple variants, Omaha variants, etc) to the mix, rather than sticking with plain vanilla NLHE. Maybe even Limit variations of Draw or Stud (7 card), etc., just to get people used to exploring these games at low risk.

 

[LeLe]

The blinds are set just high enough for people to respect the game

When is 10/10c blind is a high enough stake for ppl to respect, people might even argue $1/$2 is not even high enough.

You going to get ton of callers / multi way each hand.

In another thread I said I would be charging for my whisky

You prob want to just try and focus getting a group going for the first few sessions, no point thinking about all the "cost/expenses" at the start.

 

[Stephendoohamlet]

I'm keen to get my group of tourney guys to start playing cash as well.
Keen to follow and know how you get on next week!

 

[Taghkanic]

STRUCTURE: 10max,

I hate 10-handed cash games. They play very slow, and it allows people to nit it up even more than 9-handed. And as you say, it can be a nightmare to deal, so you really do want someone competent to sit in the middle and handle that if possible. Anyway, I would suggest 9max. And for me 7-8 handed cash games are the sweet spot. More hands, less folding, less crowding at the table, more fun.

Blinds 10p/10p. Initial buy-in £10. Any time you are below or equal to £10, you may top up by £5. No matching to the big stack for now, I want to keep it small, make people earn their stacks, and don't want people turning up late and buying in big. Am thinking of allowing people to top up to 1/2 of what they had before the hand they just lost, eg a £50 stack who loses £40 on a hand can top up to £25 (with some rounding rules to keep it at £5 increments).

This seems way too complicated for even a seasoned cash host to track. I would recommend just running it like a normal cash game: You can top off anytime (up to the max), or rebuy up to the max if felted. I also allow rebuys for half the biggest stack, for when things get deep late in the game. Match the biggest stack can get hairy unless your players are really well-rolled.

FEES: [...] In another thread I said I would be charging for my whisky, getting some good feedback on that and am undecided. I want to be a good host, but not to the extent of running a weekly free bar.

Unlike some PCFers who disagree very strongly, I think if you are laying out food/drinks/booze on the regular, then it is fair to ask players to contribute... especially in a small stakes game where the cost of the spread is high relative to the buy-ins.

The question is how to do it.

I used to just ask players to chip in whatever they wanted. Most would toss in $10-$20 at the end of the night. But this created an awkward situation where a few cheapskates never contributed, or some people just forgot unless I nagged them... so really 3-4 players were carrying about half the cost, and I was donating the other half. I didn’t mind so much, because the cost of the spread was pretty trivial compared to the cash flying around in a 2/5 game. But over the course of a year, hosting every other week, it can add up. And the players who were pulling their weight can start to grumble about others who aren't.

So now—while I still don’t rake the game in the sense that a casino does—we do set $20 aside out of each “big” pot of $400 or more, only until the grub is paid for. It usually takes 5-6 big pots to get there, depending. Then it’s totally unraked. I’m still covering sodas and some wine/booze myself. Considering that we have some pots which top $2,000-$3,000 at times, $20 is nothing (1% or less).

The players seem to prefer this because (a) they don’t have to think about it, (b) it’s a trivial expense for the convenience of not having to bring your own food/drink/snacks, and (c) winners are effectively covering it. Over the course of the year, that evens out.

P.S. I would never try to recoup costs of tables/chairs/chips/etc. because those are my own property, which I can sell anytime and get back a large chunk of what they are worth (sometimes more).

INVITE METHOD: We are used to open invites, with first to reply "I'm in" gets a seat. I like open-ness generally but from reading al the comments I can see benefits to doing something more private, even just if the game is over subscribed I don't want those who live on their phone to be the only ones who get in. How do you handle private invites? If you got a message saying "Do you want to play next Tuesday, 7 in already" would you be offended? How about: "Next game Wednesday(5 days time), 12hrs to secure seat".

It can take a while to develop a ranking, but I generally start with inviting my most favorite and most regular players, four days in advance, to give them a chance to reserve a spot first. Then I move to Tier 2 after 6-12 hours, then Tier 3 the next day, etc. There are also some players who don’t get an invite until the night before/gameday because I really don’t want/need them unless I’m desperate to fill out the table.

ACCEPTANCE: No-one has ever not turned up to a home tourney before, but the game theory is obvious: if there is no punishment just say yes even if only 10% chance you will attend. So I'm thinking that they send me the intial buy-in to secure the seat and it's non-refundable (money goes into some bonus pots). This deals with all the various ways people express their probability. The £10 wouldn't be buying you the right to cancel, it would be minimal compensation to the other players and you'd still be subject to further action.

I dunno, people can be touchy about this stuff.

A better policy if you are going to “keep” pre-buys made by players who don't show is to hold it for the next time. If after a couple months they still don’t show, then sure, toss it in the general fund (high hand jackpot, etc.).

 

[merkong]

We start play low stakes (.25/.25) and so easy stack-wise out of the gate ($25-40) that we just go all the way up to the big stack if someone desires. It still stays in the “lemme freshen up for another $60 range.