Hand from Norwegian main event (1 Viewer)

[thorwilliam]

Recently played my biggest live tournament with 1974 entrants. Did not get into too many interesting spots, but want to share one hand from end of day 1 (busted one hour later at the last level that day).
I had just been moved to a new table, so I did not have a very good read on the players. I had however identified one player two to my right that seemed pretty bad with major betsizing issues. The player immediate to my right seemed more capable, but very straightforward (e.g: he seemed not to c-bet if he missed the flop). These two players seemed to be quite friendly, not sure if they knew each other from before.

The hand:
blinds 500/1000 ante 100
Player two to my right raises to 3000 from utg+3 and player to my immidate right calls. I have K10dd and call as well, everyone else folds. 11500 in the pot.
All of us started the hand with stacks around 60k.

Flop:
K 7 3 rainbow, one diamond.

Villain 1 checks and villain 2 bets 5000, I call and villan 1 folds.
21500 in the pot.

So far pretty standard I guess.

Turn:
Qd (which give me a flush draw)

Villain checks. Check or bet? If bet, how much?

 

[slisk250]

There are a few hands that could beat you here but most likely you are ahead. AA or Axd is a concern. I'd bet enough to make a draw hand go away if possible. If you get called or raised time to reevaluate

14K

 

[detroitdad]

stack sizes to start the hand?

 

[thorwilliam]

stack sizes to start the hand?

~60k each, as in op.

 

[detroitdad]

~60k each, as in op.

sorry, I even read the damn op twice looking for it, lol..........

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Fold pre. As played check back.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I agree with fold pre-flop.

As played I would likely bet somewhere in the 13-15K range at this point. Villian could have easily bet the flop with something like 88 or 99 and is now slowing down, don't want to give him free cards. There is the possibility villain has a better King and will call, but we still have our flush outs which could pay off handsomely since it will be difficult to place us on a flush if we hit the river.

I'm also fine with checking behind for pot control, for when villain has a better K or is trying to checkraise with a set or turned two pair.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

I agree with fold pre-flop.

As played I would likely bet somewhere in the 13-15K range at this point. Villian could have easily bet the flop with something like 88 or 99 and is now slowing down, don't want to give him free cards. There is the possibility villain has a better King and will call, but we still have our flush outs which could pay off handsomely since it will be difficult to place us on a flush if we hit the river.

I'm also fine with checking behind for pot control, for when villain has a better K or is trying to checkraise with a set or turned two pair.

We aren't getting any better hands to fold with a bet here (maybe KJ) and most worse hands will fold. We want 88/99 to have a chance to bluff river. We are in a sick spot if we get jammed on after betting the turn. We aren't afraid of that many cards on the river so check behind for pot control.

 

[brews]

Check. Take the free card. As Pokerweebz stated KJ is the only hand we're beating that might fold. Even worse Kx may not fold without a very large (pot size) bet. You have showdown value, re-eval on river. I don't think AK ever folds and if you got unlucky on river, then that just sucks.

 

[stocky]

Meh I think we need to bet here. About 10-15k. I feel we should be betting here to get value from draws and worse Kx hands. And plan on checking back the river. If villain is slow playing a big hand there's the chance he checks the river also planning to CR. If we get raised now dump it. Also feel a 10 is probably the worst river card for us.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Meh I think we need to bet here. About 10-15k. I feel we should be betting here to get value from draws and worse Kx hands. And plan on checking back the river. If villain is slow playing a big hand there's the chance he checks the river also planning to CR. If we get raised now dump it. Also feel a 10 is probably the worst river card for us.

I disagree with a lot of this. What worse Kx hands is he going to show up with? A "capable" player isn't calling a raise UTG+4 with anything worse than KJs and that's a stretch. You could maybe argue about getting some value from draws, but what draws do we want value from? JT (being generous, Villain probably folds pre), but Villain doesn't have that often. AdXd, but Villain often leads turn with that. We don't want to bet any lower flush draws out because they will bet river when the flush comes in and probably call our jam which is exactly what we want. This means we are probably playing for stacks against another flush anyway so there's no point in trying to get any more money on the turn (on top of the fact a flush draw will be bluffing river at ~ the same frequency they are calling turn). There so many safe river cards for us to bluff catch river or bet/fold for value that it makes no sense to bloat the pot with a hand that isn't as strong as it looks.

 

[Marius L]

I would agree with most of what pokerdweebz said. I probably wouldnt want to play for stacks with this hand in this spot. You are unlikely to get called a lot by hands that are behind you at this point, and there are not really many draws you are afraid of either, considering the extremly dry flop. Doesnt really make sense for villain to have a draw here, unless he went crazy with TJ or Axd on the flop. His betting range on the flop could be something like a set, middle pocket pairs, or a KJ/KQ/AK. I guess he shows up some lower suited kings as well as some 7x sometimes, but i doubt he will give you more than one street of value anyways (if any) with these hands, so checking for pot-control and then betting river if checked to seems like the better play. If checking back the turn i guess you would also have to call a decent amount on a blank river.

 

[stocky]

I disagree with a lot of this. What worse Kx hands is he going to show up with? A "capable" player isn't calling a raise UTG+4 with anything worse than KJs and that's a stretch. You could maybe argue about getting some value from draws, but what draws do we want value from? JT (being generous, Villain probably folds pre), but Villain doesn't have that often. AdXd, but Villain often leads turn with that. We don't want to bet any lower flush draws out because they will bet river when the flush comes in and probably call our jam which is exactly what we want. This means we are probably playing for stacks against another flush anyway so there's no point in trying to get any more money on the turn (on top of the fact a flush draw will be bluffing river at ~ the same frequency they are calling turn). There so many safe river cards for us to bluff catch river or bet/fold for value that it makes no sense to bloat the pot with a hand that isn't as strong as it looks.

What do you put villain on that he bets flop, checks the turn but bluffs the river with?

 

[stocky]

I think your range seems to narrow also. Good player with position on a bad player is likely calling with a wider range.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

I think your range seems to narrow also. Good player with position on a bad player is likely calling with a wider range.

Maybe I'm a nit, but with 4 players with position on me my calling range to a bad player's raise does not include Kx hands that are worse than KT. Plus if Villain is trying to isolate vs a bad player he should probably 3b with all those other players behind and in the blinds.

 

[Marius L]

I think your range seems to narrow also. Good player with position on a bad player is likely calling with a wider range.

He might call lighter preflop. Some suited connectors, pair, suited aces or stuff like that (i would say its loose, but i can see people doing it), but the question is then wether or not he will bet these hands with no pair/ no draw on the flop, with another player behind him

 

[Pokerdweebz]

What do you put villain on that he bets flop, checks the turn but bluffs the river with?

Fair point, but I don't think we are ever good here if Villain calls a turn bet unless we hit the flush. Like I said in my post I don't see many straight draws showing up here and we want the flush draws to come along and hit. If we are good here without the flush we shouldn't be afraid of many river cards. I think we are better suited trying to improve our mediocre showdown hand by taking the free card.

 

[stocky]

Fair point, but I don't think we are ever good here if Villain calls a turn bet unless we hit the flush. Like I said in my post I don't see many straight draws showing up here and we want the flush draws to come along and hit. If we are good here without the flush we shouldn't be afraid of many river cards. I think we are better suited trying to improve our mediocre showdown hand by taking the free card.

Good points.

I guess I see to many players trying to get cute and check/call the turn hoping to check/raise river. I would rather bet here hoping to check back river or at least know I'm beat if he raises me than face an over bet on the river and be faced with a tougher decision.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Good points.

I guess I see to many players trying to get cute and check/call the turn hoping to check/raise river. I would rather bet here hoping to check back river or at least know I'm beat if he raises me than face an over bet on the river and be faced with a tougher decision.

Yeah we do have a tough decision facing a river bet, but I still like that line.

 

[thorwilliam]

Thanks for your input everyone. My first thought was to check behind for pot control, but with the flush draw I turned I could not resist building the pot a bit so I could bomb the river if my backdoor draw came in. I was also pretty sure he had a value hand as I had seen him slow down on a couple of previous flops he didn't connect with even with the pre-flop initiative in heads up spots. I thought his range was a K or a pocket pair. Previous he had played his strong hands very straightforward so I did not expect to get check-raised. I also expected a bet to allow me to check behind unimproved on the river. I sized the bet small, 7000, trying to get value from jj-88. Thoughts about my play?

Agree that preflop might be too loose, but really wanted to play against these guys in position.

 

[Anthony Martino]

The problem with a 7K bet is.......what are you representing when you bet 1/3 the pot? It could invite villain to think you're weak and he can take the pot away. Plus it hurts your plan to get paid off big on the river if he just calls and you make your flush, when he would've likely called a bet closer to 2/3rd the pot on the turn

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Thanks for your input everyone. My first thought was to check behind for pot control, but with the flush draw I turned I could not resist building the pot a bit so I could bomb the river if my backdoor draw came in. I was also pretty sure he had a value hand as I had seen him slow down on a couple of previous flops he didn't connect with even with the pre-flop initiative in heads up spots. I thought his range was a K or a pocket pair. Previous he had played his strong hands very straightforward so I did not expect to get check-raised. I also expected a bet to allow me to check behind unimproved on the river. I sized the bet small, 7000, trying to get value from jj-88. Thoughts about my play?

Agree that preflop might be too loose, but really wanted to play against these guys in position.

If you really wanted to get into a pot with one/both of these guys I would have 3-bet to isolate with so many players behind, but I would still have folded pre. As for building the pot I wouldn't want to build the pot with just a mediocre showdown hand because you aren't getting value from anything other than a flush if it comes in. If it does come in he is leading river with his flush and you can jam so you are getting it in anyway. If he does have a king it likely better than yours and I would rather give JJ-88 a chance to bluff river.

 

[thorwilliam]

If you really wanted to get into a pot with one/both of these guys I would have 3-bet to isolate with so many players behind, but I would still have folded pre. As for building the pot I wouldn't want to build the pot with just a mediocre showdown hand because you aren't getting value from anything other than a flush if it comes in. If it does come in he is leading river with his flush and you can jam so you are getting it in anyway. If he does have a king it likely better than yours and I would rather give JJ-88 a chance to bluff river.

I think it would be possible to get value from other hands than a flush on the river if a diamond hit since it was a backdoor draw. I also think K-10 might be too strong a hand to 3! bluff pre. You are probably right that a fold pre would be the best choice however. This hand was 11 hours into the tournamen and I was getting tired and probably made one or more mistakes in this hand.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

I think it would be possible to get value from other hands than a flush on the river if a diamond hit since it was a backdoor draw. I also think K-10 might be too strong a hand to 3! bluff pre. You are probably right that a fold pre would be the best choice however. This hand was 11 hours into the tournamen and I was getting tired and probably made one or more mistakes in this hand.

I'm not disagreeing about the 3-bet pre, but I don't want to flat here. You can get 3-bet by so many players in position who want to isolate that flatting just sets you up for it. I'm just saying I would fold pre, but if I was actually looking to get into a pot with those two players in particular I would probably 3-bet. In terms of getting value on river JJ-88 is probably not calling a bet and almost all KX that called pre are KJ+.

 

[onerand]

I bet; even if I don't turn a flush draw. I know this is a new table, but what are you betting on the turn if you don't bet top pair when checked to? Too polarized.

 

[thorwilliam]

The problem with a 7K bet is.......what are you representing when you bet 1/3 the pot? It could invite villain to think you're weak and he can take the pot away. Plus it hurts your plan to get paid off big on the river if he just calls and you make your flush, when he would've likely called a bet closer to 2/3rd the pot on the turn

I think betting 2/3 pot in this spot would only fold out everything we beat and make us valuetown ourself if he has a a strong hand. It would also be so much of our stack that we would almost get odds to call if we get check raised. Should probably have checked behind.

 

[Nbk]

What are you doing here with KT?

It is not a playable hand !

So when you play a shit hand you have shit decisions to make.
Here in a big tournament you re facing another king, but with a kicker A
Dont put anymore penny in the pot and just pray to see his hand for free.


And dont play K10 again lol (kj is not more playable). If you flop the K and get action then you are the dog.
Imho of course.

 

[Marius L]

I played the norwegian championship myself, and have to add to this discussion that there were a lot of bad/inexperienced players there. I do think the KTs is a loose call, but I think it can be justified to take a flop in position in this spot against a couple of fish with a decent sized stack. I still think there is little value in betting the turn here though.

 

[thorwilliam]

What are you doing here with KT?

It is not a playable hand !

So when you play a shit hand you have shit decisions to make.
Here in a big tournament you re facing another king, but with a kicker A
Dont put anymore penny in the pot and just pray to see his hand for free.


And dont play K10 again lol (kj is not more playable). If you flop the K and get action then you are the dog.
Imho of course.

I agree that the call is loose. However I'm not losing much money in a pot with this hand unless I have a lot of equity with an open ender or flush draw or get coolered with top 2 vs a set. What if I were in the BB. Would you really not defend with this hand vs 2 players that is unlikely to bluff?

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

I'm really loving hearing the different strategies. So.... which of y'all will be at SOP III?