Help! Determining chip set denominations... (1 Viewer)

[JustinInMN]

Okay, I think I finally get what's going on.

@Hoakypoaky has a space to fill with 600 chips. 600 chips is way overkill for a single table tourney set, especially a six max. So we introduce the idea of splitting the space between tournament and cash. I figure you can do a 6 player 12/12/5/6 or 9 player 8/8/4/7 with 300 chips. I did not realize this means @Hoakypoaky wants to limit the cash space to 300 chips.

So I think as I understand the dilemma

A: split the set and accept a 300 chip cash limit
B: Upsize the tournament set where 600 chips could cover 12 players at 12/12/5/6 or 18 at 8/8/4/7.

If you do option A and are looking for a cash set for a Max buy in of 25, while I think this might be tight and prefer larger cash sets, this breakdown of 300 may be useable short handed.

100*25c, 150*1, 50*5. For a six max cash game this would probably be okay for 25c-25c.

This would yield:
Six stating stacks of 16*.25 / 21*1
One stack of 4*.25 / 24*1
Ten stacks of 5*5

You can allow 5 dollar bills to play as well if needed.

You definitely need more chips if you need to cover larger buy ins for 25c-50c, but maybe that's enough of a set to start and try cash and is the best use of your 600 chip capacity for shorthanded games.

Get samples and party on Wayne.

 

[Hoakypoaky]

I suppose getting 600 chips for an 8 player T10K setup is silly, which is why I first thought of making that hybrid cash/tourney 600 chip set in the first place. I guess my problem is that I’m just not knowledgeable enough to calculate my chip needs.

 

[Hoakypoaky]

Okay, I think I finally get what's going on.

@Hoakypoaky has a space to fill with 600 chips. 600 chips is way overkill for a single table tourney set, especially a six max. So we introduce the idea of splitting the space between tournament and cash. I figure you can do a 6 player 12/12/5/6 or 9 player 8/8/4/7 with 300 chips. I did not realize this means @Hoakypoaky wants to limit the cash space to 300 chips.

So I think as I understand the dilemma

A: split the set and accept a 300 chip cash limit
B: Upsize the tournament set where 600 chips could cover 12 players at 12/12/5/6 or 18 at 8/8/4/7.

If you do option A and are looking for a cash set for a Max buy in of 25 I would suggest this use of 300 chips.

100*25c, 150*1, 50*5. For a six max cash game this would probably be okay for 25c-25c.

This would yield:
Six stating stacks of 16*.25 / 21*1
One stack of 4*.25 / 24*1
Ten stacks of 5*5

You can allow 5 dollar bills to play as well if needed.

You definitely need more chips if you need to cover larger buy ins for 25c-50c, but maybe that's enough of a set to start and try cash and is the best use of your 600 chip capacity for shorthanded games.

Get samples and party on Wayne.

Yes this is exactly the dilemma. Let me think on this & get back to you. To make the 600 chip hybrid set work, I think I’ll have to limit to 6 players, which is all my table will seat comfortably anyway. I guess I just need to determine chip amounts needed (value marked as 1/5/25/100/500/1000/5000, with the 25s filling in as both 25c & $25).

Goal here is able to do a 6 player cash game with $25 start stack (not sure correct 25/1/5 breakdown), as well as a 6 player T10K tourney game with a start Stack (12/12/5/6).

Again chips amounts do not need to be ordered in 25 roll amounts. Total freedom

 

[JustinInMN]

I suppose getting 600 chips for an 8 player T10K setup is silly, which is why I first thought of making that hybrid cash/tourney 600 chip set in the first place. I guess my problem is that I’m just not knowledgeable enough to calculate my chip needs.

I think you might be trying to do too much with limited amount. But the fact you are planning for shorthanded play may work in your favor.

Under most circumstances, posters here recommend future proofing because the cheapest time to get everything you need is on the initial buy.

And while I agree with that, I think it's okay to try and find solutions that fit posters' parameters as well.

So get the 300 chip tourney set and get the 300 chip cash set if 600 is where you want to start. But just know as the game grows you will probably need more.

 

[JustinInMN]

I just need to determine chip amounts needed (value marked as 1/5/25/100/500/1000/5000, with the 25s filling in as both 25c & $25).

You shouldn't need to that if you follow the two recommendations I made.

And I suppose if you really want to go lean and mean

6*12/12/5/6 means a set of 75/75/50/75/25, total 300, that could be stretched to 9*8/8/4/7.

This gives your 6 of your ideal stacks, but flexibility to accommodate 9 players with reasonable stacks.

100*25c, 150*1, 50*5. For a six max cash game this would probably be okay for 25c-25c.

This would yield:
Six stating stacks of 16*.25 / 21*1
One stack of 4*.25 / 24*1
Ten stacks of 5*5

Again this gives you 17 buy-ins, which is tight but probably doable in a six max game, it's almost 3 per player. At least it gives you a place to start cash.

To reiterate what is posted elsewhere about repurposing tournament chips for cash, I know everyone trusts your friends. But imagine if someone drops a T25 on tournament night and someone else picks it up on cash night assuming it fell out of their stacks. All parties are acted with innocence, so the only result you are going to eat that because you have no reason to accuse anyone or way to find out what happened. This is 100% preventable.

The two breakdowns I quoted give you most what you want within the 600 limit without needing to resort to any repurposing schemes. The better fall back plan in cash is to just let one denomination of cash play if the bank is exhausted as a way better solution to repurposing tournament chips.

 

[Hoakypoaky]

I don’t see how I could do a 600 chip cash/tourney set without repurposing the 25 chips. Playing with old friends, not worried about cheating. As I said it will be pretty casual. Same guys every time.

Here’s what I’ve come up with....Lets discuss if I have this right.

600 CHIPS BASE SET (numbers only/no monetary values) with 6 players in mind.
T1 = 150
T5 = 50
T25 = 100
T100 = 100
T500 = 50
T1000 = 100
T5000 = 50

CASH GAME SETUP ($25 per buyin)
300 chips ($425 value, 17 total buyins = 6 starting stacks, 10 T5 stacks, 1 extra)
T25 = 100
T1 = 150
T5 = 50

Start Stack:
25 x 16
1 x 21
Blinds: 25c/25c

This is setup is for 6 players max, with 2 buyins/player per game. Meant to be low stakes, fun on a weeknight. Just need 96 25s & 126 1s for initial 6 player setup, so I’m covered with a few extra chips if only doing 2 buyins. In fact if only 2 buyins per player, I think I only need 30 5s instead of 50, and that would drop down the total number of buyins to 13, since we only need 12. Perhaps those 20 chips can be better used in the Tournamet config. Not sure. Can also drop down to $15 buyins instead of $25 if players only want to spend $30 max a night, and I’ll have plenty of $1 chips to do that. Either way I think this works for our cash game needs. But we’ll be playing Tournament mostly.

TOURNAMENT T10K SETUP
400 chips ( $387.5K value, 33 total buyins = up to 8 starting stacks, 25 T5000 stacks)
T25 = 100
T100 = 100
T500 = 50
T1000 = 100
T5000 = 50

Start Stack:
25 x 12
100 x 12
500 x 5
1000 x 6
Blinds start at 25/50

This setup is for 6 players in mind, but we could go to 8 players if needed, with about 4 or 5 buyins per player. Just need 72/72/30/36 for the initial 6 player setup, but this config lets us do 96/96/40/48 for 8 players in a pinch, with still a few extras just in case. Now if I only get 30 T5s in the base set instead of 50, that gives me an extra 20 chips to use in the tourney set. Should we go with 70 T5000 to allow for occasional big stack games? Those 20 chips would add an additional 100K to the base value of the config (up to $487.5K). I don’t know what to do really.

I think that’s all my mind can take for today. Now please tell me where my math is wrong or I’ve failed to grasp something

 

[JustinInMN]

T25 = 100
T100 = 100
T500 = 50
T1000 = 100
T5000 = 50

Okay, so the tournament set is back to 400 chips. In which case that means you only have space for 200 cash chips without repurposing.

If this is what you want to do then yes, I think the scheme you came up with is the best option.

T1 = 150
T5 = 50

So again, if these are cash chips you would not refer to them with the "T" prefix. But I think this is your best breakdown of the plan is to repurpose the T25 chips as 0.25.

Playing with old friends, not worried about cheating.

I didn't say anyone was cheating, the scenario I laid out is a way for a tournament chip to be introduced completely accidentally and innocently, but the bank is still on the hook. Now the good news is since you meant to repurpose your T25 as 0.25 your risk is a quarter and not 25 full dollars as if you were repurposing as 25 dollar chips.

Can also drop down to $15 buyins instead of $25

I think 15 max with a 0.25 big blind is just too shallow at 60bb and players will be going for multiple buy ins frequently. 20 might be okay but I wouldn't go any lower.

if players only want to spend $30 max a night,

If your players aren't willing to lose more than 30 in a night but are unwilling to play nickel-dime that's a problem. One buy and done cash players in an already shorthanded game are not good for the game long term.

Lowering the buy in and not the big blind just means more all in pots and rebuys anyway. I think you could drop to 20 (80 bb) but I wouldn't go any lower if you have to have 0.25 blind. But your players need to be willing to play 40-60 a night. If they aren't then you probably have to reconsider the cash set configuration to include nickels.

The problem with only having 300 chips to work with is you have to target one specific stake and stick with it and even at that, it's tight. Make sure you have the answer of what your players will play correct.

 

[allforcharity]

But we can't stress enough that you shouldn't use the same chips repurposed for both cash and tourney at the same time or on the same night. It's just asking for trouble. Not only that, but you'll need to keep strict count at the end of the night so that chips don't go missing and then magically appear again on a different night. Security is key for this type of scenario, even if it's just a locked drawer where you keep the cash and the rebuy chips.

 

[Hoakypoaky]

Yeah after sleeping on it, you guys are right. I think I’m going to reassess my entire line of thinking here & just make a tourney set that would be the best for for 6-8 players.

Forget the 600 chip racks, which is too many chips for me anyway. Maybe like a 400 or 500 chip set for a T10K setup. I’ll have to read some more.

 

[RichMahogany]

400 is all you need

 

[nitzilla]

I am buying a set of 600 chips, since that’s the total number of chips my racks will hold

The answer is obvious: buy more racks....I’d say add 24 more then fill out to 2x 1500 chip sets. One for cash and one for tourney...... this is how I’ve been doing it for years, I’m up to like 100 racks.....

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Yeah after sleeping on it, you guys are right. I think I’m going to reassess my entire line of thinking here & just make a tourney set that would be the best for for 6-8 players.

Forget the 600 chip racks, which is too many chips for me anyway. Maybe like a 400 or 500 chip set for a T10K setup. I’ll have to read some more.

So how did this turn out? I'm a newbie here and going through some of this same process. Been searching the forum for this subject and not having much luck. Any suggestions for other threads that discuss putting together a set and determining the numbers of each denomination needed for typical game play would be greatly appreciated. Unlike you, I don't currently have a regular group or game, just some ideas for getting some games going. I'm probably way off on my estimated chip needs. Right now I have an Excel spreadsheet going and I'm up to 1300 chips, and thinking that's still not enough!!!

 

[allforcharity]

A tourney structure for 1 table of up to 10 players can be done with about 300 chips. Multiply this by how many tables to do at once gives you a good ballpark.

Cash is all dependent on your stakes and your bank needs. 90% of 1 table cash can be done with 500-600 chips.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

A tourney structure for 1 table of up to 10 players can be done with about 300 chips. Multiply this by how many tables to do at once gives you a good ballpark.

Cash is all dependent on your stakes and your bank needs. 90% of 1 table cash can be done with 500-600 chips.

Thanks! I've been on here all day... (Uh, yeah boss, I'm working hard from home today...) I did find some other active threads with some good info. I feel like I do want to put together both a cash set and a tourney set, so here's where I'm standing at the moment:

Cash Set:
T0.25 = 150 BTW - why do you guys put a T in front of the denomination?
T1 = 200
T5 = 200
T10 = 50
Total chips = 600

I may also pick up some Andrew Jackson T20 plaques. I know this is a lower total value than others are suggesting, but I really don't anticipate having any high dollar cash games. Without the plaques this is a little over $1700. 15 plaques would get me over 2 grand. I anticipate mostly quarter/half dollar games with $20-50 buy-ins. I'm not too comfortable going higher than this and doubt it would occur with the group I'm looking to play with. Much higher and I'd probably be ready to upgrade to a custom set anyway.

Tournament Set:
T25 = 200
T100 = 200
T500 = 50
T1000 = 100
T5000 = 50
Total chips = 600

This is probably overkill, but I think it would give me plenty of chips to do a 2 table, 16 person 10,000 chip stack per person tournament. Realistically, I suspect I would rarely have more than 10.

Starting stack would look like this:
T25 = 12
T100 = 12
T500 = 3
T1000 = 2
T5000 = 1

Any observations or suggestions?

 

[allforcharity]

We don't put T in front of cash denoms. T stands for Tournament. We usually use $ for cash, but some of the Euro-centric among us insist on other symbols.

With cash sets, we usually recommend only 1 frac (unless doing microstakes), then $1, $5, $20 or $25, and $100 if you need. We generally don't go with $10 or $50 unless very special use (like in certain limit sets). Same goes for tournament denoms (which we put the T in front of).

The following are totally my biases, so take with a grain up to an entire brick of salt.

Cash set (assuming you play (0.25/0.25 minimum, up to 1/2)
100x quarters, 200x $1, 200x $5, 100x $25. You can replace 20 of the $25 with $100 if you want a special capstone chip. Some people like it, some don't care because they figure they will never use it in their stakes. Generally this gives a very comfortable bank of $3725 to $5225.

With just a slightly bigger chip investment, you can make your tournament set very flexible with this breakdown:
200x T25
200x T100
100x T500
100x T1000
100x T5000

Use 12/12/5/6 for T10K up to 2 tables of 8 each, or 8/8/4/2/1 up to 3 tables of 8 each. You have a whopping 50 possible rebuys at 2 tables, or 38 at 3 tables, and that's a total of 700 chips in even racks.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

We don't put T in front of cash denoms. T stands for Tournament. We usually use $ for cash, but some of the Euro-centric among us insist on other symbols.

Thanks so much. I keep running into acronyms here that I haven't seen before. I feel a little dumb, cause that's so obvious now that you've explained it. But glad I asked.

This was my thinking on the cash set - I threw in a few tens towards the top just to even it off and because I'm not expecting my games to be very high stakes. The set I'm looking at doesn't offer $20s and I'm using the $25s in my tournament set. I don't want to use the same $25 in both sets, as I think we discussed in another thread today.

Since I don't plan on needing any $100s in the cash game, I could get 50x $50 chips. Or just get 50x more $5s and go ahead and buy a few $20 plaques. I really don't think I'll ever need anything bigger than $20. I have no plans to play 2/5 with $300 buy-ins. If I ever do, then I'll buy some $25s with a different desing, or upgrade the entire set to something custom for security. Also, I was just doing a search on the $20 Jacksons and found a thread that those plaques were designed and commissioned by members here at PCF! Very cool! I really do love the look of those, in spite of how danged expensive they are!

Thanks again for all you help. I really appreciate it. I can't wait until my sample chips arrive in the next few days so that I can start deciding what I'm going to buy.

 

[tabletalker7]

This was my thinking on the cash set - I threw in a few tens towards the top just to even it off and because I'm not expecting my games to be very high stakes. The set I'm looking at doesn't offer $20s and I'm using the $25s in my tournament set. I don't want to use the same $25 in both sets, as I think we discussed in another thread today.

https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/andrew-jackson-20-plaque/ maybe you think about getting something like this for your $20? They also work great as a bounty chip for tournaments

 

[allforcharity]

I like the more $5s and some $20 plaques idea.

 

[BGinGA]

here's where I'm standing at the moment:

Tournament Set:
T25 = 200
T100 = 200
T500 = 50
T1000 = 100
T5000 = 50
Total chips = 600

This is probably overkill, but I think it would give me plenty of chips to do a 2 table, 16 person 10,000 chip stack per person tournament. Realistically, I suspect I would rarely have more than 10.

Starting stack would look like this:
T25 = 12
T100 = 12
T500 = 3
T1000 = 2
T5000 = 1

Any observations or suggestions?

I don't think that 3x T500 and 2x T1000 are enough chips of either denomination. And having 1/2 of a starting stack wrapped up in a single chip (T5000) is not a good idea -- when it comes time for somebody to break down their T5000, nobody has enough spare chips to make change for it.

12/12/5/6 stacks play much better and are more flexible with less change-making. Use T5000 chips for your T25 and T100 color-ups, since they will be needed in the latter stages of the tournament.

A better breakdown for your needs would be:
200 x T25
200 x T100
80 x T500
100 x T1000
20 x T5000
----------------
600 chips

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/andrew-jackson-20-plaque/ maybe you think about getting something like this for your $20? They also work great as a bounty chip for tournaments

Yup! Dem's da ones! Apparently those were originally designed and commissioned by PCF Members and Apache. Plaques