Help Me Create A Premium Deck of Poker Cards! (17 Viewers)

[AHPC]

Hey everyone, some of you have already welcomed me over on the Introductions forum, and one or two of you know me already from outside PCF I am a playing card creator who has up to this point focussed all my efforts on collectable, classic-style decks using premium paper stock. I have always wanted to create a strictly functional Poker/Casino style deck however, and I turn to you guys to help me design one, for anyone who is interested and willing to assist!

I used to play a lot of Poker, so I have been around the culture and know a fair bit, albeit I haven't played in a minute due to other commitments, but just to give you an idea that I'm not just a designer with no Poker know-how. However, you guys have your finger on the pulse more than me and I know some of you take your playing cards very seriously, which I love. I would value your thoughts.

For anyone who is able and happy to help, I am really after narrowing down a set of parameters to assign to the "ultimate" Poker deck. I know I won't be able to please everyone with a single offering (some prefer narrow, some prefer wide etc.) however I would love to come to a general consensus as much as possible, and consider all the different views before I commit to one.

Areas I am interested in hearing your thoughts about:

- Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)
- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?
- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?
- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic
- Which brands have the best quality and handling?
- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?
- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?

In addition to the above, which of these are really important/deal-breakers to you, and which are you actually OK with either way, despite your preference. Like which bits are super important?

Printing wise, I always use the best in the business. I want my products to be premium tier, and I want my artwork (which I spend ages on) to sit on something of equally high quality. So far I have contacted the printer I use for my classic decks to enquire about their PVC option (Legends), as well as another printer who do very good paper cards (WJPC) and I have also contacted the following companies (some of which advertise custom printing options, some of which do not): Bicycle/USPCC, Fournier, Modiano & Angel, all of which I only recently reached out to and am waiting to hear back from.

Please fire away with your input, thoughts, opinions and any questions you might have. I look forward to hearing from you

 

[Cratty]

Welcome! Definitely worth looking at a few pages of threads in this forum and you'll have more than enough insights by the end.

That said, IMO would say many prioritize the following (or at least I do) after selection of bridge or poker sized:

1. Plastic stock/performance (thickness, texture, flexibility, slipperyness)
2. Text and Pip design, focused on legibility
3. Cardback art
4. Face card art

The community here approaches very differently than likely your normal playing card collector or enthusiast, with a higher focus on the stock performance itself and clear legibility vs art (still matters, but only once the former are excellent). There are already great options out there (and a couple community partnered vendors too), but definitely would love to see some more budget friendly options come in, albeit need to perform well too first and foremost.

Good luck! Definitely more than anything recommend having folks try stock samples before you rush to a large order of anything.

 

[pokerchipforumname]

Good luck. My thoughts:

1. Jumbo or “in-between” index
2. Border on back
3. Poker size
4. Plastic
5. Look at broken arrow for handling. They’re great: https://brokenarrowcards.square.site/s/shop
6. 2 color pips
7. Unique back colors

 

[JMC9389]

Welcome! Lots of thoughts, and I'll try to articulate them best I can.

1. Index: Definitely jumbo or an in between blackjack index. Personally would prefer the latter as options in the market for a "blackjack" index are quite limited, as most retail options are regular or jumbo index. Only desjgn has put out an advertised version of "blackjack" index plastic cards. Fournier 2826 are more or less blackjack index although they are advertised as jumbo, and the new Faded Spade bridge cards are essentially blackjack index; bigger than standard index but the pips aren't as large as their poker jumbo line.

A lot of card and poker players on this site play poker variants with more than two hole cards. While in a vacuum, a smaller pip would be ideal to look at the cards in the mitt or in hand, a lot of these games also employ multiple boards or boards with more than 5 cards (scarney, implocean, derailment, 3-2-1, etc). With this, board visibility becomes an issue. The best compromise is an "in between" blackjack index. Make a plastic card with a blackjack index and you'll get a lot of business from these players and the meetup hosts on this site. Jumbo index would be a close second place and would be perfectly acceptable with this in mind.

2. Border versus no border: Yes to a border for me but this is just a personal preference.

3. Poker versus bridge size: Definitely bridge size for the reasons I outlined in bullet point #1. A slightly smaller card makes it easier to handle mitt cards for games that use more than two hole cards. Bridge size cards are also used in most poker rooms and casino poker rooms and give more of an authentic feel for playing at the casino. What I find is that people that use only bridge cards outnumber the people that use only poker size cards. I'm in the camp that uses both (poker size for no limit hold 'em and bridge for anything else).

4. Definitely 100% plastic. Any kind of paper is a nonstarter.

5. Cartamundi owns a good chunk of the market share of plastic card stock at this point. They own USPCC that includes Bicycle, Bee, etc,, Fournier, Copag, Grimaud, and many others. There are also other smaller brands like Modiano, Dal Negro, and Piatnik that are based in Europe. Being in the UK, you're at an advantage as lots of the top end manufacturers are in your backyard. In terms of what stock is best, it comes down to personal preference. Check out The Redneck Card Database that's a resource on this site when you have a free hour or two. The guy that put it together tested out the flex of each major card stock and broke it down by manufacturer and card stock finish.

Just some of my own commentary:

Avoid Modiano. They screwed over another good vendor here on a major order a few years ago. They were presented with irrefutable proof of misprinted cards that caused them to essentially be marked, and refused to reprint the order, the vendor having to find a new print house on short notice and having the order reprinted on his dime. They put out another line of retail bridge jumbo cards a few years back, and guess what? More quality control issues with certain cards (ex. 6 of hearts, 10 of spades, Q of diamonds) printed with a darker blue ink than the rest of the deck, essentially causing them to be marked as well. This makes these cards essentially useless and should not be used in any game where any kind of money is on the line where someone can pick this up and use the edge to their advantage.

I would touch base with Cartamundi, Fournier, Dal Negro, and Piatnik since you're based in Europe. Cartamundi has their own brand of Copag cards that they print in Belgium, Fournier in Spain, Dal Negro in Italy, and Piatnik in Austria. Cost from high to low is likely Piatnik, Fournier, Cartamundi, and Dal Negro in that order. Just keep in mind that minimum order quantity goes up if you plan on custom card face artwork in addition to just custom back artwork. Personal order of preference for me from highest to lowest in terms of card stock: Piatnik, Cartamundi, Fournier, Dal Negro, but I'm just one guy.

6. Two versus Four Color: Two for sure. Four color will have an enthusiastic small following, but you'll sell more of two color.

7. Card back colors: I like the safe option of red and blue. Tried and true and would sell a lot. However, if you choose to go the unique route, at least have the two colors go well with each other and make sense. Purple/Green. Light blue/Orange. Red/Black. Green/Orange. I'd avoid yellow overall as a lot of the intricacies of the back design would get lost and look washed out.

Looking forward to what you come up with!

 

[AHPC]

Thank you all for the replies so far. Lots to unpick. I am literally getting to work right away on this, among my hundred other projects and things to do

The in-between "Blackjack" index seems to make sense to me... I also think I like the idea of some vibrant, modern colours rather than the traditional red/blue, or if red & blue, maybe a brighter more fun pantone. Defo looking at a 2x deck setup to do this properly. I have also now contacted a couple of other manufacturers, Piatnik & Gemaco, to see what they have to offer in the custom PVC department, and since reading JMC9389's reply have just reached out to Dal Negro as well. I will start working on some concept artwork and keep you all updated on progress. Keep the replies coming, & thank you!

 

[JMC9389]

Sounds awesome!

Tagging @Phyffe , @surfik , @NotRealNameNoSir , @CUORE3 , @SwissChip , @w00zie , @CdnBeerLover , @RocAFella1 , @Geremie , @Thomacetti for their input!

 

[Cratty]

By the way, just saw some of your past work. Absolutely gorgeous cards.. please post some examples too!

 

[allforcharity]

Minimum order quantities are huge.

 

[AHPC]

Yeh I am used to MOQs of 1k ... I am seeing one or two places that want 3k for custom faces. Does seem a lot! I will wait and hear back from everyone, I think I've fired off a message to just about every brand I've seen mentioned on these pages. I would happily print with one of the manufacturers I know from my side of things, but I am unsure the quality of their PVC and wanted to make something top-tier.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Agreed on everything but want to drive home having border edges, just another added security measure and it makes it more obvious how many cards someone has discarded when playing one of our draw games.

But we use standard and jumbo, poker n bridge. If they're good cards we'll appreciate them.

 

[AHPC]

I personally prefer the look of borders too. Noted!

 

[justsomedude]

Funny timing.

I was just wondering why we can’t have other Kem and Angel-like options for the home market, and was considering reaching out to manufacturers to investigate options for custom decks.

My vote is for bridge size/jumbo index with basic backs like Angel Club Poker or Kem Circle Backs… and similar flex/feel.

 

[SwissChip]

Very interesting!
The ultimate deck should be acetate, but at least PVC, not paper.
I would not go too far from a classic face design. Maybe some small adaptations.
Thinner suits, happier faces.

Would love a new Trefl product, but idk how they turn…@surfik?

My personal preferences are:
2 colors
Jumbo or BJ index
Border back in green/dark red/grey/black
Poker and Bridge
From Dal Negro, Trefl or Fournier

Hope this get made one day - GL!

 

[AHPC]

Thanks @Cratty - Yes I will post a few photos of my playing cards for anyone who is interested

I am aware that a plastic Casino Poker deck would be bolder, more basic design-wise etc. but these are the types of decks I create for collectors and magicians.

 

[Tonysquander]

Looking forward to what you come up with. As for preference:

- Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)
Jumbo
- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?
Either is fine. Full bleed is nice sometimes for a change up like the Copaq Exports
- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?
Poker
- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic
Plastic
- Which brands have the best quality and handling?
I like Fournier, Desjgn, Modiano Platinum (without the curling…lol) and Copaqs are fine but not what I reach for first. Keep hearing how great the poker Piatniks were but have never been able to find any to try them out.
- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?
2
- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?
Either is fine as long as the unique version isn’t something way over the top-like the back colors on Copaq Neoterics-would never buy those.

Editing to agree with later comment: Top card float is very annoying

 

[upNdown]

Areas I am interested in hearing your thoughts about:

- Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)
- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?
- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?
- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic
- Which brands have the best quality and handling?
- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?
- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?

In addition to the above, which of these are really important/deal-breakers to you, and which are you actually OK with either way, despite your preference. Like which bits are super important?

In order of priority:

Plastic - if you're producing paper cards, you're in the wrong place

Index - I won't buy standard. A medium would be fine as long as all the pips are easily discernable - no 4s that look like 9s, no spades that look like clubs. I'd be interested to see if you could create a readable from across the table medium index that somehow managed to look like a standard index card in terms of full card face art

Slipperiness - A lot of us host games where we pass the deal, and a lot of our players are less than competent shufflers. So when I'm evaluating a deck, I shuffle the cards like an idiot and if they're slipping all over the place they're unfit for my game. I've found this usually means cards that are more flexy as opposed to stiff and cards that have the same textured finish on both sides. KEM is my favorite in those regards. But you can get a 2-deck setup of Lot Fancy from amazon for ten bucks that work almost as well. So this can be achieved on a budget.

An underrated thing that I always look for is cards that gather well. Some cards have edges that seem to hit each other and stop, as opposed to sliding over and under each other. If a deck doesn't gather well after a hand or a wash, I won't be buying it again.

Top card float is annoying.

In my mind, very little else matters. Poker vs Bridge - most people have a strong preference, and I think bridge has the edge here, but you can't really win on this one - you won't satisfy all the people all of the time. I love a full bleed back, but I'd never advise that because the majority of people prefer a border - border backs are probably more secure. Four color decks are still a novelty in real life and the vast majority of players aren't interested. I think the market could be split pretty evenly between people who prefer red/blue backs and people who prefer more interesting colors. The problem is that there are a lot of colors and how are you going to satisfy everybody there. I'd advise against yellow backs - I played a tournament with those once and found them distracting.

 

[SwissChip]

Thanks @Cratty - Yes I will post a few photos of my playing cards for anyone who is interested

I am aware that a plastic Casino Poker deck would be bolder, more basic design-wise etc. but these are the types of decks I create for collectors and magicians.

These look fantastic! Congrats!

The feel is more important than the look imo.
No sharp edges, soft/flexible, a very slight texture…

 

[CdnBeerLover]

My $0.02...

- Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)
Jumbo or blackjack. Basically, community cards have to be easily read from the far end of a typical oval table.

- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?
Border

- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?
Poker. I've tried bridge with our crew, and every time there are comments about the "small" cards. Our players play in a number of different games, but the one common trend across all of them are poker-sized cards.

- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic
Plastic

- Which brands have the best quality and handling?
Fournier 2818 for their branded cards (WSOP, EPT, WPT, etc)

- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?
2 colour

- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?
Please avoid any combination that is not easy to distinguish. For example, Bicycle and Four52 (when they were available) had green/burgundy combos that were useless to me, as I am partially red/green colour blind, and could not easily tell between the card backs. In the pictures of Kem and Angel cards posted above by @justsomedude , I cannot easily tell the back colours apart in the picture of the Kems. Takes about 30 seconds of staring to start to see a difference. I used to own the Angels, and traded them for Fournier as I thought both decks were the same colour. I assume they are not?

Red/Blue, yellow/black, orange/purple, orange/brown are good combinations. Red/green, brown/red, brown/green, purple/green are unusable.

- a comment on the pips
Make sure the spades and clubs are easy to distinguish. The "fat spade" used for some designs (Modiano) can cause confusion. Also, a light red for hearts and diamonds is preferred over the darker "security" red used in some decks.

 

[surfik]

1. Plastic cards for sure. You get decent printing service, best option are Fourniers and Dal Negro (2000 decks minimum order)
2. Definetly blackjack or jumbo...there was pool on the forum that indicated that most of players prefers jumbo
3. Borders or not (full bleed)...don't realy care but love full bleed and there are very few options on the market right now
4. Poker or bridge size? Do both, players have preferances but if they will be given choice they will most likely buy both.
5. 2 color decks for sure, 4 color fans are minority on this forum and consider 4 color decks novelty
6. Here are my ideas on back design I find interesting.....(one of them was proposed by @justincarothers )

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

Plastic
Poker Sized
Full Bleed
Blackjack Index
2 & 4 Color Decks
Contrasting Setup Colors

 

[AHPC]

Lots of good feedback here - thank you everyone!

 

[Eriks]

Will be following along with great interest!

Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)

Prefer jumbo but in between could work as well. Wouldn’t buy standard.

- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?

I really like a full bleed, but I think going with a border is a safer bet.

- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?

Prefer bridge.

- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic

Plastic 100%. I would be very surprised to see anyone here preferring paper.

- Which brands have the best quality and handling?

Fournier, Angel, Dal Negro

- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?

2 color - 4 is an instant deal breaker

- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?

Classic red/blue

 

[davefr]

IMHO, your primary focus should be the careful selection of quality plastic card stock and the printing process used. There are huge differences.

Let me give you some examples of unacceptable quality problems:
Copags look nice and handle fine but after 6 months the ink disappears
Kems have a buttery smooth feel but over time they warp.
Faded Spade have a nice design but they are way too stiff.

See if you can get Angel Japan to produce your cards using their acetate card stock. They're just about perfect. After that try Fournier or maybe Gemaco Superflex. I believe Dal Nego does Desjgn and they're pretty decent.

 

[Bronson]

I’m simple here in that matter; all I want is plastic equivalent of Bee but on quality plastic stock.

 

[Geremie]

Do you prefer regular index, jumbo, or in-between (is it called Blackjack or Casino index?)

Jumbo is preferred and Blackjack is a close second. We don’t play with standard index.

- Do you prefer classic back designs with a border, or borderless Casino style back designs?

We play with both. Most of my setups are bordered.

- Do you prefer Bridge or Poker size cards?

We play with both. Most of my setups are Poker sized.

- Do you prefer paper or plastic - I guess the answer from most would be plastic

Plastic. Wouldn’t buy paper.

- Which brands have the best quality and handling?

Grimaud, Angel, Fournier

- Do you prefer 2 colour or 4 colour decks?

2 colour

- If I was to create a 2 deck set, which colour backs would you like to see? Classic red/blue, or something a bit more unique?

I think I have 10+ colors in my collection. As long as there enough contrast between the two decks then I’m a buyer

 

[Eriks]

Faded Spade

@AHPC Basically, if you make it your goal to have the new line turn out the opposite of these in every aspect, they'll be great.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

100% plastic, Bridge size, jumbo index, bright vibrant backs with a border.

Cards would have to have all of these points for me to jump on board.

 

[mipevi]

The best cards you could get are Gemaco acetate (superflex). They are a thicker stock than Angel so more similar to KEM, but I've had zero issues with Gemaco cards warping.

If going PVC I think there are a couple of good options, but Piatnik is my favorite. Just the right amount of thickness/flexibility (for PVC), making them pretty much perfect. And they are hard to come by, if going with Fournier or Dal Negro you will likely have competition on the same stock.

Jumbo index / classic design with border / bridge / 2 colour / unique back colors.

 

[AHPC]

Heard back from gemaco - they don't do custom orders, they just print a logo onto gemaco cards, aimed at casinos etc. So they're out. See what the others come back with!

 

[AHPC]

Started sketching. So far focussing on a strong, classic casino theme with a touch of elegance, blackjack size index, a border around the back... I went with the cream fill inside the rectangle for this Ace concept, I think it works well on BJ index casino style cards and I notice a lot of guys around these parts like this design element. It also reminds me of an old deck of Fournier 818 that I had when I was younger that I really liked. This is also the first Ace of Spades I've ever drawn up that doesn't have a spade as the central motif, but I think it looks quite cool!

Just getting some ideas down at this stage. Unsure whether to opt for 2x decks in separate tuckboxes or 2x decks loose in a shared box. Any preferences on this front? I was probably leaning more towards a shared box, even though I drew up separate tucks.

Thoughts/ideas/suggestions?

Still just sketching down concepts so nothing hard and fast yet. The Courts will be classic and instantly recognisable, and plan on making the red suits a bright red as per @CdnBeerLover suggestion. Everything bright and bold and legible and clean, and printed on good stock.

Let me know what you think Cheers!