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Home Game Cheating (4 Viewers)

I played in a home game for a while where I felt something was off. I stopped going. Most of the people were friends since high school, but I barely knew them. Turns out that one couple was setting the deck for each other when dealing, and giving signals. These people had known each other for 20 years, and had been ripping off the game for a couple years for big money! They finally got caught and there was a huge all out brawl at the game.
 
cpac54 said:
Maybe I’m naïve, but how are folks adding chips to their stacks? Do these games not have bankers/hosts who control the chips?
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Say you use dice chips for your tournament. Most people who use dice chips aren't counting them to see if they have the same amount at the end of the night. So you chip Llama in a few high denominations colors.
Or even worse, the host is in on it, and has handed off some to his accomplice friends.
 
Same with a cash game where they use poker knights or some other cheap easy to get from Amazon set. Add a few at the end of the night, leave a few minutes early...cash them out for a win.
 
Adding chips in a cash game seems to me to be a one time only thing - host/bank would know about it at the end of the game. Cheater could only get away with this once.

Tournaments might be easier, especially in sets that aren’t in sorted racks (like dice chips in the aluminum suitcases) and are missing random pieces.

As far as checking down when all in, I guess some people might consider it collusion, but I’ve played online lots of times where two players call a short stack all in pre-flop, and the flop, turn and river are so wet or miss everybody’s range so badly that it just makes sense to check for both remaining active players. No collusion, just pot control.

YMMV
 
I caught an outright cheat at my local cheeseburger-stakes NLHE cash game a few years ago. It was a guy who was a colleague of most of the other players (and the host), and he'd been playing with them—and evidently cheating—for 15 years or more. He was peeping the stub during his deal and apparently manipulating the cards. Full story in this thread: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/my-first-time-catching-a-cheat-yes-really.53927.

Aside from that, I've run into a fair amount of collusion in public cardrooms in New Hampshire. Pretty much what the other posts here describe: two players who know each other bet and raise, followed by checking it down after they chase you out of the pot or get you all-in.

Back in the limit-poker-only days, they (often the same players) were even more overt about it. Colluding players would check-down with each other all the time by default, unless one of them had a monster, but would bet and raise liberally if a third player was in. And they'd openly talk about it between each other after the hand, like "Sorry I bet there. I would have checked but he [gestures at third player] was in the pot."

Then there's the merely suspicious stuff I couldn't prove one way or the other: players at the table obviously texting each other between hands or speaking languages other than English during a hand.

The room where this was the biggest problem in my experience was the now-closed Rockingham Park. On the average day, the playing population was about 50% leather-assed townies who never left the place, and I suspect the house never did anything about them colluding because they were the business's bread and butter. Eventually I stopped playing there entirely, mainly because of this issue.
 
LotsOfChips said:
Adding chips in a cash game seems to me to be a one time only thing - host/bank would know about it at the end of the game. Cheater could only get away with this once.

Tournaments might be easier, especially in sets that aren’t in sorted racks (like dice chips in the aluminum suitcases) and are missing random pieces.

As far as checking down when all in, I guess some people might consider it collusion, but I’ve played online lots of times where two players call a short stack all in pre-flop, and the flop, turn and river are so wet or miss everybody’s range so badly that it just makes sense to check for both remaining active players. No collusion, just pot control.

YMMV
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Agreed.

As far as the checking down thing, I agree with the prevailing thought here. Absent the nuts (or some kind of monster) it's just tactics.

Suppose final table:
Player A (50BB): AsQs
Player B (10BB): Jc10c Small
Player C (60BB): AcJc Big

Player A bets, B shoves, C calls, A calls (indulge me). Board runs out 5s5cKd/3d/9c what are A and C supposed to do? If they were just heads up how much of a battle would this be?
 
ThrowBack said:
Home games shouldn’t have these kinds of worries. Most cheats are bad at it. Most people who try bottom dealing have tells from the cards they use, the way they cut, over focused etc

Most people trying to hustle a homegame are doing because they’re not good enough to do it somewhere else. Wannabe mechanics are rarely good enough to deal

I would say most common attempt would be chip adding or stealing. Most thief’s are lazy
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Where do you think most cheats learn their trade? Do you think card marking or squeeze players go to some back-alley high stakes game to try their newly-learned skill? Maybe go to the casino that they are regulars and risk getting perma-banned there (and likely all properties where surveillance is shared), thus ending their options of ever playing poker again?

No, cheats ply their trade at local home games. They start at low stakes where a ban is no big deal. Then they move up in stakes where they have a chance at greater profits.

All home game hosts should be vigilant. Whether it is a penny-ante family game, a game with long time friends, or a local game with all regulars, every host should make watching for cheats a routine. Proper deck management, cut cards, examining cards for marks at the end of the night, watching for suspicious play - the list is long, but not as difficult as it seems.

I'd rather have a talk with a lifelong friend who was constantly winning as to why they were cheating, rather than find out they were shot in a parking lot of a high stakes game for cheating.

Player: "Did you hear Bob was killed at that $10/$20 game downtown? They said he was second-card dealing."

Host: "Wow, that's awful. It's a good thing he never cheated with us at our monthly 25¢/50¢ game. Guess he didn't need to, as he usually won $500 a night for the past 12 years"

Player: "Didn't need to - or wasn't caught?

Host: "We're low stakes, and old friends. Why would he cheat"

Player: "$500 a month over 12 years = $72,000. Would anyone cheat to gain $72,000?" :unsure:
 
The short and easy is you are right, it’s pretty naïve of me to think you can try to get eight people together to do anything, then get money involved, and not think that there isn’t room to find a snake in the grass. I guess I don’t worry about it as much because we do actually do things that keep the game safer, I just find them common practice. Using a cut card, modifying in-house chips, accurate, chip counts, non-Hackable, shuffle machine, different person, cutting and other proper gear dealing techniques and keeping the stakes low have all made it where it would be a pretty difficult game to scam off of. I don’t think of these things so much as security measures as we just enjoy the process of doing things right
 
In 15 years of hosting, I've only come across one player we suspected of cheating, and only had anecdotal evidence (he played fairly TAGish normally but seemed to make big hands with questionable holdings when he was dealing). Never caught him red handed. We stopped inviting him and later found out he had scammed some people in non-gambling scenarios. After that we changed our shuffle/dealing procedures.

On a side note, what is the consensus on security using a shuffle behind (with a cut card)? I feel like it would be very difficult to cheat since the dealer is using a deck shuffled by another and cut by a 3rd player.
 
cpac54 said:
Maybe I’m naïve, but how are folks adding chips to their stacks? Do these games not have bankers/hosts who control the chips?
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Cash game cash outs would be obvious.

I’d be more concerned w hosts adding tournament chips.
 
Dugthefish said:
what is the consensus on security using a shuffle behind (with a cut card)?
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The shuffle behind is what I have seen/experienced the most. I can’t recall a game/tourney that I’ve played in where this wasn’t the standard.

The cut card is hit or miss, but generally there is a cut at a minimum.
 
I only recall two instances of cheating (that I've noticed) in almost 15 years of playing home games:

Jimulacrum said:
peeping the stub during his deal
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1) The one time I caught a player cheating in my house, it was this. He was a guy that I'd met in another game, played a few sessions with him and didn't see anything unusual. I invited him to my game, things were okay for a while until the two of us got into a hand. He was dealing, I was betting hard, there was a flush draw on the board, and I saw him riffling the stub with his thumb.

Immediately called him out on it, and was working up the nerve to tell him to leave when he beat me to it. He cashed out roughly even and left almost immediately, and he obviously was never invited back.

2) My first regular game (as a player, not a host) was a $10 weekly NLHE tourney with anywhere from 10-30 players per week. We had two married couples who were regs, and one of them clearly colluded pretty regularly, but nobody in the group seemed to care much.

The same couple always pocketed their chips during the break, and after a while, I noticed they didn't always return with the same stack they left with. My belief is that they were either chip dumping off the table or would hold them back on small nights and put them in play on bigger nights to improve their odds.

I pointed this out to the host, and we informed the group that we were missing chips, and that we would start counting down the chip set after each game. Coincidentally, the couple dropped out of the group a few weeks later and never returned.
 
ThrowBack said:
The short and easy is you are right, it’s pretty naïve of me to think you can try to get eight people together to do anything, then get money involved, and not think that there isn’t room to find a snake in the grass. I guess I don’t worry about it as much because we do actually do things that keep the game safer, I just find them common practice. Using a cut card, modifying in-house chips, accurate, chip counts, non-Hackable, shuffle machine, different person, cutting and other proper gear dealing techniques and keeping the stakes low have all made it where it would be a pretty difficult game to scam off of. I don’t think of these things so much as security measures as we just enjoy the process of doing things right
Click to expand...
This is the point I try to make to people that equate "common practice rules" as being a "rules Nazi". It really doesn't hurt anything to follow common rules. Cut cards are cheap (if anyone here doesn't have a cut card PM me your address and deck size and I'll mail you 2). Shuffle behind with the previous dealer cutting to the next dealer speeds the game and provides security as it would take 2 conspirators to set a deck and a whopping 3 conspirators to set the deck for dealing "seconds". Plus new players that learn common practice rules at your game will be more likely to notice irregularities at other games and will be wary.

Basically put, I make my friends follow the rules. Not because I think they will cheat me (that's not necessary, I haven't had a winning game in over 2 years), it's to protect them at other games.
 
Schmendr1ck said:
I only recall two instances of cheating (that I've noticed) in almost 15 years of playing home games:


1) The one time I caught a player cheating in my house, it was this. He was a guy that I'd met in another game, played a few sessions with him and didn't see anything unusual. I invited him to my game, things were okay for a while until the two of us got into a hand. He was dealing, I was betting hard, there was a flush draw on the board, and I saw him riffling the stub with his thumb.

Immediately called him out on it, and was working up the nerve to tell him to leave when he beat me to it. He cashed out roughly even and left almost immediately, and he obviously was never invited back.

2) My first regular game (as a player, not a host) was a $10 weekly NLHE tourney with anywhere from 10-30 players per week. We had two married couples who were regs, and one of them clearly colluded pretty regularly, but nobody in the group seemed to care much.

The same couple always pocketed their chips during the break, and after a while, I noticed they didn't always return with the same stack they left with. My belief is that they were either chip dumping off the table or would hold them back on small nights and put them in play on bigger nights to improve their odds.

I pointed this out to the host, and we informed the group that we were missing chips, and that we would start counting down the chip set after each game. Coincidentally, the couple dropped out of the group a few weeks later and never returned.
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Similar to the only instances of home game cheating I've ever seen as well:

1) Soft play between couples. I know of it happening once, with a friend and her boyfriend. We had a talk to her about it a few days after the game, and I'm 100% sure she was innocent. She was a new player that still hadn't grasped the term "I raise" regardless of hand strength. Her boyfriend on the other hand was a seasoned poker player. Before we could confront him about it, it was discovered that he was already married to someone else, so his invite was rescinded.

Some people cheat in multiple fields.

2) We had a player that would glimpse occasionally player's cards that were discarded. It was brought up to me after the game, so in the next newsletter, I wrote an article about the importance of protecting the deck. She stopped the practice. Again, I don't feel she was "cheating", just curious. She wasn't a good enough player to build ranges, she was a basic ABC player.

The important thing was that we could "confront" her without actually confronting her.
 
Are UV cards a problem elsewhere? I have heard a few instances cropping from fellow players in Singapore alone.
 
doublebooyah85 said:
2. Pay attention to the dealers hands! Do you actually notice him take the rake? Does he do it in the flop? Or at the end of the hand? I’ve caught dealers double raking!
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Some games set rake chips on the upper left corner of the tray until the hand is over. They put the rake into tray between pushing the pot and moving the button. It's subtle and they don't try to draw attention to it, but for those who are curious about how the game is running it's extremely transparent. I definitely prefer games that do this.
 
jja412 said:
We have an occasional duo that does this in our cash game. They always set as far apart from each other as possible. Then one will lead, the other will squeeze...as soon as everyone is gone, they check it down. Sometimes with the nuts.
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Stupid question - what advantage is gained from doing this by the duo?
 
Cowthulhu said:
Stupid question - what advantage is gained from doing this by the duo?
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It sets up the third player to either get squeezed out and leave them dead money (e.g., if they want to run out draws) or allows them to set up the third player to get raised indefinitely until all-in (if one of them has a monster hand).

Think about it as the couple playing from a shared bankroll, i.e., it costs them nothing to lose against each other.
 
Jimulacrum said:
It sets up the third player to either get squeezed out and leave them dead money (e.g., if they want to run out draws) or allows them to set up the third player to get raised indefinitely until all-in (if one of them has a monster hand).

Think about it as the couple playing from a shared bankroll, i.e., it costs them nothing to lose against each other.
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If they're playing from a shared bankroll, couldn't they just...
  • after the squeeze, play the hand normally
  • on subsequent street(s), the raiser bets and the caller folds (thus hiding the actual strength of the hands)
  • on subsequent street(s), the raiser checks and the caller raises back and the early raiser folds (thus hiding the actual strength of the hands)
  • either jam and the other folds.
  • one bets big and then taunts the fold by showing a bluff
Literally, any combination heads-up hands could be played at this point, using any poker strategy, from rank-amateur to poker pro. The squeeze is also a valid move for any player that has limpers following a weak to standard raise, in order to isolate.

In fact, the only time it makes sense for a couple to squeeze, then check it down with the nuts is to avoid paying the house a bigger rake.
 
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Dugthefish said:
On a side note, what is the consensus on security using a shuffle behind (with a cut card)? I feel like it would be very difficult to cheat since the dealer is using a deck shuffled by another and cut by a 3rd player.
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I think always separating the cut from the shuffle defeats most deck manipulation. We do shuffle behind, dealer cuts and deals.

Budha said:
The cut card is hit or miss, but generally there is a cut at a minimum.
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The cut card isn't really an anti-cheating device, but is mainly a simple way to protect the face of the bottom card in the deck from being flashed around the table.
 
Here is a scenario I saw at a game involving unlimited rebuys and bounty entrys. A pair of players (married couple in this case) were in my opinion angling on a table against 1 or 2 other players....with unlimited rebuys this led to dumping of chips and somehow one of said married couple acquired most of their bounty chips from their spouse. The tourney structure was such that the bounty paid approx 3x the entry fee in the end....making it a near neutral risk venture to pump chips in to hope for chip stack supperiority and the other player can be made even by the bounty pot.......if all works out of course.

For me it was a new game a town over, probably won't go back. Multiple languages and cell phones used at the table and a couple that obviously plays together.

My solution is only a 1x bounty given with the initial buy-in....you can rebuy to the main pot but only survivors can hold or win bounty buttons. If a rebuy player takes out a bounty player, in my game that bounty chip becomes "void" and is returned to the house/dealer. I use boba fett bounties so you either have a helmet or chips flipped to carbonite for what is captured. Players with heads (ie not eliminated) are allowed 2.5x addon where headless players are allowed 2x add on. The idea being players that go crazy building chip stacks are slowed down a bit by the potential elimination from the bounty game. Also those who dont loose their bountychips are rewarded with a addon bonus for the same $ as the players who were busted out. I have also played where bounties won remain however I like the sudden death about losing everything/shit hounding a player gets for taking a lot of bounties early in the game.
 
Poker Zombie said:
If they're playing from a shared bankroll, couldn't they just...
  • after the squeeze, play the hand normally
  • on subsequent street(s), the raiser bets and the caller folds (thus hiding the actual strength of the hands)
  • on subsequent street(s), the raiser checks and the caller raises back and the early raiser folds (thus hiding the actual strength of the hands)
  • either jam and the other folds.
  • one bets big and then taunts the fold by showing a bluff
Literally, any combination heads-up hands could be played at this point, using any poker strategy, from rank-amateur to poker pro. The squeeze is also a valid move for any player that has limpers following a weak to standard raise, in order to isolate.

In fact, the only time it makes sense for a couple to squeeze, then check it down with the nuts is to avoid paying the house a bigger rake.
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Sure, a couple of skilled poker players could do a lot of things with this type of cheating.

We should be grateful that most colluding couples are not skilled poker players.
 
LotsOfChips said:
Adding chips in a cash game seems to me to be a one time only thing - host/bank would know about it at the end of the game. Cheater could only get away with this once.
Click to expand...

Well, the host *should* notice at the end of the night that the box isn’t right. But that doesn’t mean s/he knows who cheated.

Say I was using generic injection mold chips, and someone snuck four green $25s into my 2/5 cash game, making the box $100 light at the end of the night.

As a host, the first time it happened I would probably assume that *I* screwed up, and miscounted a buy-in or rebuy, or had two $100s stick together at payout... I could have counted their cash wrong, or had a brain fart and given out too many chips.

So I would review my handling of the box, and be more careful the next time.

The second time it happened, I would be more suspicious. If I concluded it was someone introducing extra chips, I would not know who did it just because the box was light.

I could try to guess who it was, based on their personalities, or who cashed out for more than I expected. But the chips could have been snuck in by a losing player during the game and he busted, so tge cashouts alone wouldn’t tell me anything.

So then I’d have to start watching people’s movements and stack sizes like a hawk. Eventually the person would get caught.

But just having a light box would prove nothing.

One thing I might do is tell the whole group, “Hey folks, the box has been light two games in a row. I’ve been super careful to make sure all cash and chips match up. Everyone please triple-count the cash you hand me and the chips I give back, as I will be doing. I’d hate to think anyone was sneaking chips into their stacks.”

That would at least put the cheater on notice and with hope put an end to it, for a while at least. But I’d have to stay vigilant.
 
Taghkanic said:
Well, the host *should* notice at the end of the night that the box isn’t right. But that doesn’t mean s/he knows who cheated.

Say I was using generic injection mold chips, and someone snuck four green $25s into my 2/5 cash game, making the box $100 light at the end of the night.

As a host, the first time it happened I would probably assume that *I* screwed up, and miscounted a buy-in or rebuy, or had two $100s stick together at payout... I could have counted their cash wrong, or had a brain fart and given out too many chips.

So I would review my handling of the box, and be more careful the next time.

The second time it happened, I would be more suspicious. If I concluded it was someone introducing extra chips, I would not know who did it just because the box was light.

I could try to guess who it was, based on their personalities, or who cashed out for more than I expected. But the chips could have been snuck in by a losing player during the game and he busted, so tge cashouts alone wouldn’t tell me anything.

So then I’d have to start watching people’s movements and stack sizes like a hawk. Eventually the person would get caught.

But just having a light box would prove nothing.

One thing I might do is tell the whole group, “Hey folks, the box has been light two games in a row. I’ve been super careful to make sure all cash and chips match up. Everyone please triple-count the cash you hand me and the chips I give back, as I will be doing. I’d hate to think anyone was sneaking chips into their stacks.”

That would at least put the cheater on notice and with hope put an end to it, for a while at least. But I’d have to stay vigilant.
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If someone snuck any chips into my game, I'd know that because there would be extra chips. If the bank was light after everyone is paid out, I know I screwed up somewhere along the line, and I'd eat it. That's why I always double count everyone's stacks, and cash myself out last.

In fact, the last game, one of the players counted something like $276, but I recounted and ended up with $291. My bank was perfect.
 

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