How badly did I play this hand? (1 Viewer)

[Trihonda]

I was playing 1/2 at my local Casino, and walked away from a hand feeling kinda dirty afterwards... Wondering just how bad was my play, and where folks think I made (if any) mistakes.

SB- Hero is mixing it up, has a competent image. Hero is not getting out of line much. Effective stack is around $300
UTG+2- Just sat down at the table with $300. Quiet, and tatted up.
MP - Quiet player, seems to take shots at pots, but hasn't really shown much intuitive play. Sitting with around $200
Button - Tight player, just moved to an open seat to my immediate right. Hasn't been very active, and hasn't made it to showdown with anything of note, sitting on around $150.

PREFLOP

Table limps around to the button, who makes it $7. ~$20 in the pot, and I look down at . It's $6 more for me to complete. Other than the BB, everyone else limped, so I'm counting on a few more limpers while deciding my implied odds. I make the call. $34 in the pot.

BB, UTG, UTG+2, UTG+3, call. $54 in the pot.

MP gets crazy and raises $20 to $27 total. Something seems amiss. Button calls. $94 in the pot.

I make the call for $20 more. Only UTG+2 calls. 4 of us see the flop, and our pot is now at $134.

FLOP

Flop comes and I check (in flow). UTG+2 checks, and to my surprise MP also checks. The button makes it $50 (slightly over 1/3 pot). Action on me, $184 up for grabs. I flop top pair and a gutter.

My read on the button is strength. $50 for him is a sizable bet, and he only has $70 behind. I definitely range him on an over pair. I'm not sure about UTG+2, and MP might have AK types hands (both of these guys have shown weakness by checking the flop, and have the button covered).

Thoughts on action thus far and what we do next...?

 

[stocky]

Fold pre after the re raise. Your hand doesn't play that well oop and any flush you hit isn't great anyway.

 

[DrStrange]

Preflop is a mistake at every decision. Look at the stack sizes - $300 / $300 / $200 / $150 / unknown. Just the $7 raise would have lead to a $34 pot and SPRs of 8+/8+/5+/4+/??. Not exactly comfortable for a big pair hand, but also not very suitable for speculative hands.

But now a villain sticks in a $20 raise making a $134 pot and bringing in SPRs from 2+ to less than one. This is wholly in top pair territory and no place for a hand like 86s.

As we shall see in the post flop Hero is normally going to be in a tough situation at best or snap folding at worst.

Hero hits the flop pretty well. Top pair, gut shot, back door spades, back door straight (running 2-3) Cumulatively this is stronger than a flush draw, Hero was "lucky". Hero has roughly 38% equity vs an overpair.

There is a lot to be said for jamming the flop. On a lucky day, Hero holds the best hand and the best draw. But if not, Hero's semi-bluff might fold out some better hands though the short stack(s) should not ever fold a better hand. If Hero gets called by the short stacks, the price was about right to have called anyway, plus Hero gets the maximum fold equity.

As played - Hero should jam and play button heads up. It is a fair price for Hero's hand assuming button holds an overpair. Button might fold to the scary check-raise, perhaps he is bluffing, perhaps it is his last few chips and he isn't ready to go back to his room.

Hero needs just a bit more good luck -=- DrStrange

 

[Forty4]

I think the logic of only $6 more to call works if you're in the BB and action closes with you. If you had asked yourself will anyone raise after I flat and how comfortable am I with this hand then? You might have found the fold. You then did it again with the call of $20 more, what would you have done if UTG +2 jammed? I don't mind speculative hand like gap suited connectors but you have to be in the correct position/situation.

I also agree that on the flop probably should have jammed.

 

[Trihonda]

I agree with all the advice (and criticism) thus far. I knew the calls were bad, but I can't explain away some weird (uncharacteristic) feeling to stay in the hand. I don't usually play poker by feel, especially when I was very aware of being out of position.

 

[Trihonda]

OK, seeing how I start to realize what a sticky spot I've gotten myself into.

FLOP

Flop comes and I check (in flow). UTG+2 checks, and to my surprise MP also checks. The button makes it $50 (slightly over 1/3 pot). Action on me, $184 up for grabs. I flop top pair and a gutter.

I continue the advance level metathinking (derr, sarcasm). I really did contemplate an iso raise here, but I start to think that I'm behind the button, but likely ahead of the other players, who have the button covered. I also contemplated a fold... Ultimately I call though. UTG+2 and MP both call. $334 in the pot.

Turn is a

I check (damn, sucks being OOP).

UTG+2 and MP also check. Button jams his last $70 into a pot of $334. Moving beyond the mistakes that were made, we now have top pair and a ton of draw equity. What do we do?

UTG+2 and MP both have $150-200ish back. But my read is they're not overly agro, high level thinking players.

 

[krafticus]

At this point, I think you have to either Jam, Shove, or push it all in.

 

[DrStrange]

Call and hope to create a donkey train of calls. I doubt very much that a pair of eights with no kicker wins the pot, so lets get all the money we can into the pot for the draw. For what it is worth, I am not banking on a six being a good card for Hero.

I have doubts about making a big bet hoping to clean up some of hero's outs. Yes you can clean up the draw sometimes, but all too often you'll end up folding out hands with no equity vs Hero's holding (keeping in mind Hero has to beat the button's hand, so he has to improve anyway) and keeping in hands that beat hero prior to the draw.

Lastly, please take note of how the low SPR is sucking everyone into playing for stacks with inferior hands. Those preflop decisions are leveraging themselves into stack threatening decisions. Hero might be the beneficiary of the situation or headed towards a reload.

( crosses fingers, though it is a LOT late ) -=- DrStrange

 

[stocky]

At this point you have to call. I'm not sure if the correct play is call or jam but yeah it's to late to get away now.

I'm guessing this turns out to be some miracle river bink and hero scoops. I'd still rather fold pre.

 

[Trihonda]

Call and hope to create a donkey train of calls.

Hero has to beat the button's hand, so he has to improve anyway

I like this line of reasoning. We need to improve to win, so if we improve, we are likely to be ahead of UTG and MP.

But I agree, we (I) made a really bad call pre. It felt wrong at the time. Not sure why I made it.

Once the flop came, I decided to run with the hand. I haven't run the equity equations, but I thought I was getting priced in (or was close), and I wasn't overly concerned with UTG or MP coming along for some reason.

I'll post results shortly.

I was looking for some tough love on how the hand was played. I felt costly mistakes were made, and I don't want to make them again.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Your pre flop calls are usually fine here in a low stakes game. There are only two reasons you should want to fold this hand at any of your pre flop decision points.

1) is if there are any players yet to act behind you who like to try to steal pots like this or make large pot sized isolation squeeze raises behind you (i.e. they're making it $45+, NOT $27). After the guy makes it $27, you're looking at a huge implied odds situation with everyone left to act behind you having already passed on their opportunity to make that isolation raise. So they're almost never coming over the top here. You are effectively closing the action with your $20 call. So this is a super easy call at this point for me. The fact that this is multiway makes up for the fact that no one in particular is all that deep. The only spot you should consider folding pre is from the buttons first raise, and only if there are players who are prone to make that large squeeze play behind you.

2) if your post flop skills in tough spots aren't very good. A hand like this is tricky to play post flop out of position, and your decision to not check raise the flop tells me that you may not be comfortable enough to play these types of hands out of position. For that reason, I might like to see a fold pre flop when facing the initial raise, but for me personally, I'm almost never folding this hand pre flop in this spot.

Once the flop comes, you should realize that you're likely ahead of almost everyone else, with the exception of someone having an overpair (button most likely). But even they might fold to a check raise. As played, you MUST check raise this hand. To not do so is a pretty big mistake. You can't let all the AK/AQ/77/99/A8s/98 type hands in behind you. Also worth noting is that the button's flop bet seems awfully weak. Why would he only bet $50 when the pot is around $100 and he only has $120 left? If he has somehting like JJ+ here, it should be an easy shove for him. But assuming he just sucks, and ignoring that, you have a decent chance of taking the pot down right now with a check raise to $120 in this spot. The button may have JJ and decide to let it go because he fears you've flopped the nut straight or a set (with this many limpers, people often assume the worst). That said, he likely has an overpair and is probably calling off his stack in this spot. Which is fine. You still have just under 40% equity vs a big pair hand and are getting better than 2:1 on your money. Add in the fold equity, and you're in a great spot for a check raise semi-bluff.

However, as played, you should now just flat the turn bet because your draw has now improved quite a bit. You have a flush draw, open ender, an 8 and possibly even a 6 as your outs. You no longer have any fold equity, and now you're going to need to hit your hand to win the pot, so you want as many callers in behind you as possible. Just call now.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Been thinking about this hand today. Agree with most thoughts here.

I don't think calling either open is too much of a problem. Although I don't feel great about calling the 3b your still getting a pretty good price.

I prefer c/r for the reasons mentioned above.

As played I would just call the turn.

I wonder what people think about 3b pre. I think that 89s is obviously a better candidate for bluffing here in general but the $7 open feels a little weak to me. I would expect a larger raise with a hand like TT+ and AQ+. I think a lot of the time the BTN has capped his range at weaker holdings that are in the range of hands that don't flop strong on a lot of flops. I also think that 78s and 89s are better candidates for playing in smaller multiway pots as they flop more equity a lot more often. Lastly I think that a 3b here will fold out a lot of dead money already in the pot. If 3b I would make it around $40 - $50 depending on how calling stations the players are. I'm hoping $40 would be a decent enough size giving us a much better price on our bluff.

Interested to hear people's thoughts.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Been thinking about this hand today. Agree with most thoughts here.

I don't think calling either open is too much of a problem. Although I don't feel great about calling the 3b your still getting a pretty good price.

I prefer c/r for the reasons mentioned above.

As played I would just call the turn.

I wonder what people think about 3b pre. I think that 89s is obviously a better candidate for bluffing here in general but the $7 open feels a little weak to me. I would expect a larger raise with a hand like TT+ and AQ+. I think a lot of the time the BTN has capped his range at weaker holdings that are in the range of hands that don't flop strong on a lot of flops. I also think that 78s and 89s are better candidates for playing in smaller multiway pots as they flop more equity a lot more often. Lastly I think that a 3b here will fold out a lot of dead money already in the pot. If 3b I would make it around $40 - $50 depending on how calling stations the players are. I'm hoping $40 would be a decent enough size giving us a much better price on our bluff.

Interested to hear people's thoughts.

The $7 button raise is almost certainly not a strong hand (in a vacuum at least - obviously player dependent though). A 3 bet would likely succeed in taking the pot down often enough to show a small profit, but it's a high variance play with small rewards - something I'd rather avoid (you'll need a higher bankroll to game stakes ratio if you're taking these spots on because your risk of ruin increases). You'd earn more money by moving up stakes with the same bankroll and playing slightly more conservatively. In this spot, if one of the early limpers is setting a trap, it's going to cost you. However, those are all secondary arguments for not 3 betting here. The primary reason that I don't like this play here is because hero is playing low stakes and the majority of our profit in these games comes from the huge mistakes our opponents make post flop. I like to take more flops against bad players than I do against strong players. If we were playing mid to high stakes, then I'd like the play a lot more, but not here.

That said, for the exact same reasons mentioned above, in a higher stakes game, I'm making a weak raise like that on the button with monster hands just to lay the bait for someone to try to smash the pot. If someone takes the bait, then you can choose to either come over the top or string them along depending on how they play and how deep they are. It's one of my favorite plays to make, and it works far more often than it should. But you need the right lineup at the table, otherwise you're just building a nice pot for someone else to draw out on you. But at least your hand is disguised.

 

[Trihonda]

FLOP

Flop comes and I check (in flow). UTG+2 checks, and to my surprise MP also checks. The button makes it $50 (slightly over 1/3 pot). Action on me, $184 up for grabs. I flop top pair and a gutter.

I continue the advance level metathinking (derr, sarcasm). I really did contemplate an iso raise here, but I start to think that I'm behind the button, but likely ahead of the other players, who have the button covered. I also contemplated a fold... Ultimately I call though. UTG+2 and MP both call. $334 in the pot.

Turn is a

I check (damn, sucks being OOP).

UTG+2 and MP also check. Button jams his last $70 into a pot of $334. Moving beyond the mistakes that were made, we now have top pair and a ton of draw equity. What do we do?

UTG+2 and MP both have $150-200ish back. But my read is they're not overly agro, high level thinking players.

RESULTS

I flat the turn,

UTG+2 also calls

MP folds. I guess AK didn't get there in the first 4 streets, so he's not paying $70 to see one card (which may or may not be good).

Pot is now around $544.

I river is a "Favorable" .

I slide a barrel of reds ($100) across the betting line, and UTG+2 insta-mucks. I flip up my hand, and the button mucks in disgust.

My thoughts:

I probably shouldn't plan on playing 68 (even suited) OOP very often (I got lucky here).

I think a case can be made "for" or "against" many of the actions in this hand (based on skill or table reads or people's understanding of poker). It seems that some argue that mistakes were made pre-flop (I'd probably fall into this camp), but some argue that pre-flop call was ok. Many seem to think the post flop play was "ok", while others think this is where I made my biggest mistakes. There are times I feel like Matt Damon (in Rounders), skillfully navigating my way through hands, and then times I feel like Phil Locke with a ski mask on, getting lucky.

This hand still confounds me some. The one thing I'm certain of, is that I felt a little dirty after the win. I knew I needed to get lucky, and for some reason I had this compulsion to play the hand (and play it the way I did). Again, this line was atypical for my normal play.

 

[Rhodeman77]

At least you knew to bet the river!

Nice pot. Those types of hands especially are better to play from in position. Strong hands it helps, but more for finding the best value. Here you have no idea where you are in the hand and how much pressure you can take or should try to exert on the other hands.