How to play pre-flop vs loose non-thinking ABC poker players? (1 Viewer)

[26bigs]

I play a .50/.50 home game where players like to limp call open raise for “pot odds”. Majority of these players are non-thinking ABC poker. How do you adjust your open bet sizing against these type of players?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Depends how they play post-flop. ABC poker, do they limp/call then fold to c-bets on the flop if they miss? I'm sizing up my openings with better hands. What are the other players doing, is it only you doing the preflop raising?

Play more hands in position and open bigger. If they're calling with Q4o because they have good pot odds, I'm going to gladly give it to them when they finally hit 2pair or better, but I'm going to charge them more for the hunt.

 

[Jimulacrum]

In general, when you find people are chasing you down light on your preflop raises and creating a lot of multi-way post-flop spots, the answer is to raise more. Try to isolate one or two opponents, or just take down the blinds.

But this is situational, and more information would be helpful. How deep are stacks? How much do you typically raise? Do people reraise you with any frequency?

 

[26bigs]

We play 100b. My standard open raise is $2. Low frequency 3bets.

 

[26bigs]

In general, when you find people are chasing you down light on your preflop raises and creating a lot of multi-way post-flop spots, the answer is to raise more. Try to isolate one or two opponents, or just take down the blinds.

But this is situational, and more information would be helpful. How deep are stacks? How much do you typically raise? Do people reraise you with any frequency?

We play 100b. My standard open raise is $2, then I add $1 per limper. Low frequency reraise.

 

[Tonystark137]

We play 100b. My standard open raise is $2. Low frequency 3bets.

Kind a small raise.
I seen 6.25 raise for 25/50c go 4 ways....

 

[Tonystark137]

When I raise $2 in 25/50c I expected to go 8 ways pretty often....

 

[DrStrange]

"ABC" poker does not mean the play(ers) using that style are "loose" nor "non-thinking". "ABC" poker is easily a winning strategy in most low stakes games. On the other hand, a non-thinking style of poker rarely makes money.

OP would be better served to spend time, effort and study on the post flop play as that is where most of the money is won or lost. Also figure out if the villains being targeted are "ABC" vs "loose and non-thinking" because the methods needed to deal with one style vs the other are often quite different.

Perhaps we would benefit from discussing actual hands vs a generic primer on how much to raise preflop -=- DrStrange

 

[26bigs]

"ABC" poker does not mean the play(ers) using that style are "loose" nor "non-thinking". "ABC" poker is easily a winning strategy in most low stakes games. On the other hand, a non-thinking style of poker rarely makes money.

OP would be better served to spend time, effort and study on the post flop play as that is where most of the money is won or lost. Also figure out if the villains being targeted are "ABC" vs "loose and non-thinking" because the methods needed to deal with one style vs the other are often quite different

Perhaps we would benefit from discussing actual hands vs a generic primer on how much to raise preflop -=- DrStrange

Maybe beginner is the right word to describe them. It’s just frustrating that no matter what sizing I open pre-flop it always goes multi-way. I have no issue navigating post-flop because I know they play ABC.

 

[LotsOfChips]

It’s just frustrating that no matter what sizing I open pre-flop it always goes multi-way.

Use this to your advantage, and jam or overbet with premium hands pre-flop. Limp with speculative hands (suited connectors, low pairs, etc.) and then load the pot when you flop the straight/flush/set or check/fold when you miss. It's unlikely that anyone is paying attention to your bet sizing, so load the pot when you are way ahead, and exercise pre-flop pot control when you are hoping to catch a made hand/strong draw on the flop.

 

[Jimulacrum]

We play 100b. My standard open raise is $2, then I add $1 per limper. Low frequency reraise.

So it's reasonably deep-stacked, enough that you can start experimenting with larger raises without forcing yourself to commit to the pot. To start, I'd recommend nudging that $2 up to $3, $4, $5, etc. (plus your $1 per limper) until you start seeing more heads-up flops. Feel out where the limit is that gets the limpers to give up, if there is one.

Maybe beginner is the right word to describe them. It’s just frustrating that no matter what sizing I open pre-flop it always goes multi-way. I have no issue navigating post-flop because I know they play ABC.

Playing by-the-book TAG Hold'em against loose/passive beginners is not very fun and tends to produce a lot of variance, for exactly the reasons you're concerned about. Too many people see the flop, you get stuck in weird spots against weird hands, and when the pot gets big, you're not sure where you're at.

Hands like AJ and KQ in late position, usually bread-and-butter raising hands against a tighter field, lose a lot of value because you either have to make a very large raise with a hand that doesn't quite warrant it, or you raise smaller and get 13,509,126 callers, and it's useless to continuation bet when you whiff the flop. Post-flop aggression works against players with more experience because they tend not to waste a lot of chips chasing pointless hands, and you take advantage by applying extra pressure that allows you to take down uncontested pots.

The weakness you'll want to exploit in this lineup is a little different, as I expect from your OP that there are few if any uncontested pots in this game.

The weakness you want to exploit is that players are limping constantly and not raising enough. They're letting their opponents see way too many flops (and likely later rounds; is this true?) for cheap or free. You should take advantage of this to the maximum. Instead of waiting for standard premium openers, limp in often, especially in good position, with hands that beat people who play all manner of bullshit.

Suited aces are one of the best examples of this. They gain a ton of value against players like this. Your chronic limpers are probably getting in there with a lot of smaller suited cards, and given their lack of experience, they're probably willing to pay off a lot when they hit a smaller flush. All you have to do is be there with a bigger flush sometimes.

Set mining is another case. No need to raise with a hand like 88, trying to thin the field. Just limp it. If you hit a set, milk it. If you don't, it cost you $0.50.

Connected cards can be a good case too, but don't overvalue suitedness, since you expect to see a lot of less-than-nut flushes. With connectors, you're looking to see the flop cheaply and get free cards to make straights. Only milk it once you're made; don't bother semi-bluffing people like this.

In general, slow down with hands that want to improve or win uncontested (like the AJ and QK from earlier, but also post-flop). Save your big bets for when you have big made hands. Bluff only in the rarest, most obvious cases—almost always on the end, like when an opponent was chasing and clearly missed his draw.

 

[Taghkanic]

Heads-up or even three-way, it’s great if these loose villains call/overcall light. You are way ahead of their ranges.

Where it gets especially hairy and frustrating is when you go 4-6way to every flop. I find that even huge raises over multiple limpers can result in a “waterfall” effect of multiple callers in these games.

A while back I posted a hand from a 1/3 game where I had AA on the button. It’s been a while, but as I recall there were *five* limpers plus the button yet to act. Having gotten tired of all these multiway pots, I make it $50 to go.

The button folds. Then four of the five limpers call. Suddenly their hands which were only worth limping for 1BB are worth nearly 17BB each.

So now it’s five-way to the flop with my AA. Flop is something like QhJc9h.

First caller checks, second caller donks for $250 and everyone else folds, including me. The flop smashes their absurd ranges of all suited combos, all Broadway combos, 8To, 99/TT, etc. My AA shrivels into a bluff-catcher at best.

When I ask what they were flatting a raise to $50 with, of course their reasoning is that once one guy calls, the rest think they are “priced in” and almost every limper comes along.

The truth is that once they have put money into the pot, even if it’s only one big blind, they can’t let it go even if it costs them 25+ more big blinds. Sunk Cost Fallacy gone wild.

 

[Kentucky]

So it's reasonably deep-stacked, enough that you can start experimenting with larger raises without forcing yourself to commit to the pot. To start, I'd recommend nudging that $2 up to $3, $4, $5, etc. (plus your $1 per limper) until you start seeing more heads-up flops. Feel out where the limit is that gets the limpers to give up, if there is one.


Playing by-the-book TAG Hold'em against loose/passive beginners is not very fun and tends to produce a lot of variance, for exactly the reasons you're concerned about. Too many people see the flop, you get stuck in weird spots against weird hands, and when the pot gets big, you're not sure where you're at.

Hands like AJ and KQ in late position, usually bread-and-butter raising hands against a tighter field, lose a lot of value because you either have to make a very large raise with a hand that doesn't quite warrant it, or you raise smaller and get 13,509,126 callers, and it's useless to continuation bet when you whiff the flop. Post-flop aggression works against players with more experience because they tend not to waste a lot of chips chasing pointless hands, and you take advantage by applying extra pressure that allows you to take down uncontested pots.

The weakness you'll want to exploit in this lineup is a little different, as I expect from your OP that there are few if any uncontested pots in this game.

The weakness you want to exploit is that players are limping constantly and not raising enough. They're letting their opponents see way too many flops (and likely later rounds; is this true?) for cheap or free. You should take advantage of this to the maximum. Instead of waiting for standard premium openers, limp in often, especially in good position, with hands that beat people who play all manner of bullshit.

Suited aces are one of the best examples of this. They gain a ton of value against players like this. Your chronic limpers are probably getting in there with a lot of smaller suited cards, and given their lack of experience, they're probably willing to pay off a lot when they hit a smaller flush. All you have to do is be there with a bigger flush sometimes.

Set mining is another case. No need to raise with a hand like 88, trying to thin the field. Just limp it. If you hit a set, milk it. If you don't, it cost you $0.50.

Connected cards can be a good case too, but don't overvalue suitedness, since you expect to see a lot of less-than-nut flushes. With connectors, you're looking to see the flop cheaply and get free cards to make straights. Only milk it once you're made; don't bother semi-bluffing people like this.

In general, slow down with hands that want to improve or win uncontested (like the AJ and QK from earlier, but also post-flop). Save your big bets for when you have big made hands. Bluff only in the rarest, most obvious cases—almost always on the end, like when an opponent was chasing and clearly missed his draw.

This seems like great advice but I’d like to dig into it a bit more to make sure I properly understand it.

Usually the advice is… when opponents are playing too many hands Hero needs to tighten up and also test the limp call limits with bigger and bigger raises. In this case, you are saying instead that the opponents’ error is to let Hero see too many flops too cheap. I’m keen to give this a try but worry I’ll end up trying to beat Villain at his own game, and won’t be good at it

The standard advice is that the value of suited connectors goes down vs. high cards because their isn’t the stack depth to pay of on the rare times you hit vs. those times we don’t. I guess that math must change if it’s cheap to get to the flop. Are we also not going with single pairs at a stack/pot ratio of 1 or 2? Maybe on drier flops we still can?

I smiled when I saw the line about semi-bluffing. At the game I play in like this, the host tells me I don’t bluff enough - I will sometimes run a bluff on the rare occasions I’m heads up - but I tend to think that I never struggle to get called when I have the nuts, so why would I bluff?

Anyway, sorry for this stream of consciousness response, I’m trying to internalize what you said. Any more thoughts on this strategy would be appreciated!

 

[Jimulacrum]

This seems like great advice but I’d like to dig into it a bit more to make sure I properly understand it.

Usually the advice is… when opponents are playing too many hands Hero needs to tighten up and also test the limp call limits with bigger and bigger raises.

In general, playing tight against a slightly looser-than-average field with average raising tendencies holds up. You don't want to limp around when people are likely to raise you, and playing tighter helps make sure you usually outkick their weaker ace/face types of hands like A5 and K9.

In this case, you are saying instead that the opponents’ error is to let Hero see too many flops too cheap. I’m keen to give this a try but worry I’ll end up trying to beat Villain at his own game, and won’t be good at it

This is exactly their big weakness, if I've read OP's description right. You still don't want to be limping in with all manner of second-best junk (their strategy), but just add some hands that soundly beat their second-best junk and take advantage of their willingness to give free cards. Draw-type hands (straights and flushes) go way up in value when no one's making you pay to draw, but of course yours still need to be better than theirs. Let them play their T7o and Q4s suited while you're waiting with TJo and A4s, stuff that will give you the nuts.

You do have to be careful playing these marginal hands, though. You can't play them like traditional strong openers, where you're looking to catch top pair and press your advantage. You're looking for big hands to start getting money in the pot. Let the marginal hands stay cheap in these big multi-way hands. No sense going broke in limped pots.

The standard advice is that the value of suited connectors goes down vs. high cards because their isn’t the stack depth to pay of on the rare times you hit vs. those times we don’t. I guess that math must change if it’s cheap to get to the flop.

Not just cheap to get to the flop, but cheap in general. Limpy games tend to also be full of check-downs and underbets on all rounds, which changes the whole game dynamic compared to more experienced players who know to protect their hands and have a decent sense of bet sizing.

Are we also not going with single pairs at a stack/pot ratio of 1 or 2? Maybe on drier flops we still can?

The money in this game isn't won as much by setting up SPR = 1 or 2 on the flop against this field and shoving. If OP manages to find the preflop raise size that gets it heads-up with his super-premium openers, there will be spots like that for sure. But more often we're looking for spots where Hero has a much bigger advantage to press in later rounds—spots where more experienced players seldom let you get there cheaply and don't pay off when you hit. It sounds like these players are going to do the opposite, a lot.

I smiled when I saw the line about semi-bluffing. At the game I play in like this, the host tells me I don’t bluff enough - I will sometimes run a bluff on the rare occasions I’m heads up - but I tend to think that I never struggle to get called when I have the nuts, so why would I bluff?

Exactly this. When people tell you they won't fold, listen to them. Bluffing at players like this is a waste. Let them give you free cards, and then take them to town when you hit.

Anyway, sorry for this stream of consciousness response, I’m trying to internalize what you said. Any more thoughts on this strategy would be appreciated!

You got it!

 

[ThrowBack]

They don’t think about BB and sizing. They need to FEEL the raise. 4 BB won’t scare them, but $7 is lot

 

[Taghkanic]

They don’t think about BB and sizing. They need to FEEL the raise. 4 BB won’t scare them, but $7 is lot

In some games even ridiculously big raises can’t get folds.

I was playing in a 1/3 game recently and had AKo UTG. Knowing the game had a lot of fish but not wanting to go multiway with AK, I made it $20.

Now to me, a 7x raise from UTG would scream “premium hand.” My range is basically JJ+, AK, at worst AQs.

But no. I get *five* callers. Flop is all low cards, I check UTG, there’s a bet, call call raise fold, and I toss my AK. Turns out none of those calling my 7x UTG raise had a face card. All hit the low flop. What an you do?

A bit later I have AKs in the cutoff. There’s a limp, and a raise to $25. I decide to raise huge to $93 to see how they react (assuming it will go heads up with the initial raiser).

The $3 limper thinks for about 20 seconds then calls. So his 1BB hand is now worth 31 BB, apparently. I’m thinking, did he limp with aces or kings? I block those, and wouldn’t he reraise them? Also he only has about $200 behind, so I assume we are going to play a one-street game here.

The $25 guy folds. We get it in on a JQx flop and he wins with 9To, binking the K straight on the river.

Again… What can you do?

 

[AH77]

There’s really no expert strategy that is going to help in these kinds of games. The money comes from being patient and waiting for spots where you will get their whole stack.

For example, as a more advanced player you may only lose 1 or 2 bets when you have top pair, top kicker against a player who flopped two pair or a set whereas you will likely get a significant portion of your opponent’s stack, if not their whole stack if the roles are reversed.

It’s frustrating because you’d like to play a more open game (3 betting, varying open raise sizes, etc) but these strategies will likely just go over their head and many times will only incentivize them even MORE to call you down as these type of players view raises as just trying to “bully” the table. They get satisfaction out of trying to outdraw you on the flop or run a big bluff on you on later streets.

 

[Tonystark137]

Played a 5c/10c where I saw someone who maybe play 17 hands in 6 hours. The hands are exactly what you think they be. Ultra premiums. In retrospect; just don't give them any action. Better game selection?