Interesting tournament Situation (3 Viewers)

[Terrys394]

Wanted to hear any thoughts on a tournament situation that happened to me tonight. Playing a low buy in tournament I get a k10 of clubs and call. 7 people in , flop comes q 8 4 two clubs. Check to me and I bet almost a pot bet (5k) and get called by small blind who is a cute girl who is either new to poker or pretending to be. Either way she is entertaining the table. Anyway the turn pairs the 8 and we both check. River is a 9 I miss and she starts talking saying “ do you have me beat ? “ And some other nonsense. Anyway after 20 seconds she announces fold and pushes her cards in. The dealer pushes the cards and her hand back telling her you can check. I wanted the hand dead but if I start arguing the hand should be dead it gives away the fact that I don’t have anything. The dealer tells her just check and she does. I throw out another 5k and she immediately calls. Now it’s a little awkward because I say she folded her hand and it should be dead and 3 of the guys at the table jump to her defense that I got caught trying to steal now I’m shooting an angle. I have to ask the dealer for a floor decision 3 times before the floor is called. Floor rules it is a live hand and I don’t argue the ruling at all. Of course I’m the angle shooting villain at table now but I can’t help wonder if the angle shooter was her.

 

[Colquhoun]

I think when the action is on a player, they say “I fold”, and push their cards forward, the hand should be dead. The player is surrendering their chance at the pot, regardless of what actions they could take.
Like you mention, this behavior could exploited as angle shooting if they were permitted to take back their cards after declaring, “I fold”.
In this case, she was likely just oblivious to her options, but cards should be ruled dead regardless.

 

[LeLe]

If anyone is at fault, it's the dealer.

Shit happens, just move on.

 

[RagingAZN]

In the short form TDA rules -

58: NON STANDARD FOLDS

Any time before the end of the final betting round, folding in turn if there’s no bet to you (EG: facing a check or first to act post-flop) or folding out of turn are binding folds subject to penalty.

…but she’s cute so let it go. Did you get her number?

 

[RagingAZN]

…also I would suggest not limping KTs UTG.

 

[BPTDirector]

The rule is - you mucked your f()ked. No exceptions.

 

[mipevi]

So what did the cute girl have? Might give some insight into what she was doing.

I think you needed to raise the point of her hand being dead when the dealer started to instruct her. Yeah maybe kind of a dick move in a friendly environment if she really is new to poker, and sure you'd show weakness, but if you wanted to go there that was the spot. The river bet is fine, but should have just smiled and complemented her call (assuming she indeed beat you at showdown).

 

[Biznasty]

Definitely an odd situation in which I agree with

If anyone is at fault, it's the dealer

The dealer should have kept her hand dead and informed her after the hand about what her proper actions are in that given situation i.e. not folding

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Eh. Low buyin, and she folded when she could've checked, most likely just a teaching moment. Yes, her hand should've been dead, but if the dealer pushes it back to her it's not dead and you should treat it that way. Complain to the dealer or floor afterwards but as played, bet smaller or just check then let your complaint be known, but you won't make friends doing so.

You lose your chance to argue about it once action has happened afterwards though, waiting until she does something you don't like isn't the way.

Why limp with KTs? What position?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Her hand was dead. Then again, baby-stakes game and she seems like a super-noob, and sometimes it's best to protect people like that from their early super-noob mistakes, even if it's wrong. But by any standard rules, her hand is dead and the dealer is out of line bringing it back.

Waiting until you've bet and she has called to raise the issue isn't quite an angle IMO, but it's too little too late. You should have contested the reviving of her hand in the moment it happened.

But also, she's a woman and men are notorious for letting their judgment slip around women, so any plea by you may have been met with a lot of "C'mon, just let her have her hand back!"

 

[Terrys394]

Eh. Low buyin, and she folded when she could've checked, most likely just a teaching moment. Yes, her hand should've been dead, but if the dealer pushes it back to her it's not dead and you should treat it that way. Complain to the dealer or floor afterwards but as played, bet smaller or just check then let your complaint be known, but you won't make friends doing so.

You lose your chance to argue about it once action has happened afterwards though, waiting until she does something you don't like isn't the way.

Why limp with KTs? What position?

I think your view is right on in retrospect. I came in after two people limped in for 800 and the cutoff and button came in as well. Player had a weak queen. I didn’t object when it happened I probably should not have said anything at the end.

 

[Terrys394]

…also I would suggest not limping KTs UTG.

I didn’t limp in had 1 or 2 call if front of me and it was a multi way pot. Thanks for the TDA ruling , I think once the dealer doesn’t muck the hand and I don’t say anything I’m out of luck there. Even if I said something about the hand should be dead , I’m sure the dealer and a few of the others at the table would have objected. No win situation for me

 

[PlaidDragon]

Anyway after 20 seconds she announces fold and pushes her cards in. The dealer pushes the cards and her hand back telling her you can check.

My tendency is to be nice and I can see why the dealer did what he did... but this kind of ambiguity can cause issues, as you detailed.

This is why I have a set of written rules printed and lamented. The two key to this issue being:

Verbal declarations are binding regardless of physical actions.
If your hand has been mucked, it is dead. No exceptions.

Thus if the above are in place and enforced, if she says "fold" and throws her cards in (even if she could check) it's pretty clear cut that the hand should be over.

 

[JMC9389]

Weird situation. I would say her hand is dead. Sounds like the dealer was sweet on that player. The insta call after the cards were returned (which should have never happened) is an angle to me. Either you and the dealer got worked or she really had no idea what she was doing. I

I'd try to shrug it off if it didn't put a huge dent in my stack, but I'd still be a bit bothered by it.

 

[mipevi]

Yeah I don’t like that she had Qx and did what she did. Be careful around that one in the future.

 

[allforcharity]

The dealer shouldn't be playing other people's hands, just enforcing the rules. The hand is dead with action of mucking and verbalizing 'fold'. Action and intent are absolute.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I didn’t limp in had 1 or 2 call if front of me and it was a multi way pot.

Did you raise? Sounds like you simply called the minimum bet.

 

[buzzmonkey]

During the hand you have the option to protest or wait for the hand to end. If you protest you're giving away your holding a bit so I understand not wanting to do that.

If you wait and then raise trying to steal the pot you lose the ability to protest that specific hand in my opinion because you're now using the information that she's weak to win, this making the action legitimate.

HOWEVER, I think you can and should talk to the floor about the hand either during a break or after you're eliminated. You should ask what the ruling should be an ask if it's documented (any card room should have the rules made available for players either printed out or online.) If the ruling is that the action was legitimate you can voice your concerns and ask (though don't demand) if a rule change can be considered. If they use the TDA rules which clearly show that this was not OK, you can ask that the dealers all be reminded/informed.

 

[warma]

My super chill low stakes fixed limit home game- I do what the dealer does.
Tournament at a card room- player folded; dealer shouldn’t be giving guidance no matter how cute someone is.

But yeah, you were in a tough spot as you noted. Then again, weak means strong?

 

[Terrys394]

Did you raise? Sounds like you simply called the minimum bet.

Yes I called. I understand people raise with k10 suited That’s fine, I didn’t this time a tight player had limped in. The point wasn’t how I played the hand it was about a dealer problem / ruling question.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Yes I called. I understand people raise with k10 suited That’s fine, I didn’t this time a tight player had limped in. The point wasn’t how I played the hand it was about a dealer problem / ruling question.

That’s fine. I was just trying to clarify your action. When you said you didn’t limp I got confused since that’s what you said you did in your OP

 

[Natskule]

Wanted to hear any thoughts on a tournament situation that happened to me tonight. Playing a low buy in tournament I get a k10 of clubs and call. 7 people in , flop comes q 8 4 two clubs. Check to me and I bet almost a pot bet (5k) and get called by small blind who is a cute girl who is either new to poker or pretending to be. Either way she is entertaining the table. Anyway the turn pairs the 8 and we both check. River is a 9 I miss and she starts talking saying “ do you have me beat ? “ And some other nonsense. Anyway after 20 seconds she announces fold and pushes her cards in. The dealer pushes the cards and her hand back telling her you can check. I wanted the hand dead but if I start arguing the hand should be dead it gives away the fact that I don’t have anything. The dealer tells her just check and she does. I throw out another 5k and she immediately calls. Now it’s a little awkward because I say she folded her hand and it should be dead and 3 of the guys at the table jump to her defense that I got caught trying to steal now I’m shooting an angle. I have to ask the dealer for a floor decision 3 times before the floor is called. Floor rules it is a live hand and I don’t argue the ruling at all. Of course I’m the angle shooting villain at table now but I can’t help wonder if the angle shooter was her.

low stakes, 7 players seeing the flop, player didn't know you could check, folds then calls.

Sounds like you called the floor in a beginner tournament where the dealer was helping explain some basic stuff. There aren't any angle shooters there, just beginners. Explain to her that verbal is binding and mucking your cards is final, so she doesn't do it again. No reason to call the floor at such a game. If you are intolerant of such mistakes don't play with beginners at beginners stakes. If you are trying to profit off of such beginners than be tolerant that small rules violations like this will be overlooked a few times as teaching moments.

 

[Terrys394]

low stakes, 7 players seeing the flop, player didn't know you could check, folds then calls.

Sounds like you called the floor in a beginner tournament where the dealer was helping explain some basic stuff. There aren't any angle shooters there, just beginners. Explain to her that verbal is binding and mucking your cards is final, so she doesn't do it again. No reason to call the floor at such a game. If you are intolerant of such mistakes don't play with beginners at beginners stakes. If you are trying to profit off of such beginners than be tolerant that small rules violations like this will be overlooked a few times as teaching moments.

This I disagree with. I’ve dealt for over 25 years in casinos and card rooms and never saw a beginner tournament. There were low buy in mid buy in and high buy in. There were lots of people who took the low buy in seriously and vice versa. This particular tournament was $60 with $30 add ons and a rebuy. Most of the players had plenty of experience. As a dealer I always enforced one set of rules for all tournaments. I know this sounds a little inflexible but it works better this way.

 

[Jimulacrum]

This I disagree with. I’ve dealt for over 25 years in casinos and card rooms and never saw a beginner tournament. There were low buy in mid buy in and high buy in. There were lots of people who took the low buy in seriously and vice versa. This particular tournament was $60 with $30 add ons and a rebuy. Most of the players had plenty of experience. As a dealer I always enforced one set of rules for all tournaments. I know this sounds a little inflexible but it works better this way.

Wait, so this was in a commercial cardroom? I'd interpreted this as a home game or other informal setting based on the OP.

Her hand should be dead, period. There's no room to make exceptions in a public/commercial gambling establishment; basic rules of this sort must be enforced consistently. The dealer should catch some kind of discipline, or at least retraining, for bringing the hand back. And I think OP should have some kind of recourse against the cardroom.

The error is egregious, and if I'm being honest, it looks like the woman angled you. She probably expected to get her hand back, or otherwise it wouldn't make a lot of sense for her to muck a hand as strong as queens up—and then call your bet.

It would have been out of line in a home game. In a licensed cardroom, it's bordering on criminal.

Be interesting to know if the dealer has any connection to the woman.

 

[Natskule]

This I disagree with. I’ve dealt for over 25 years in casinos and card rooms and never saw a beginner tournament. There were low buy in mid buy in and high buy in. There were lots of people who took the low buy in seriously and vice versa. This particular tournament was $60 with $30 add ons and a rebuy. Most of the players had plenty of experience. As a dealer I always enforced one set of rules for all tournaments. I know this sounds a little inflexible but it works better this way.

my bad. Those details weren't in the OP. With those details, yeah the hand was mucked and it was over. I got the impression from the OP that it was more of a beginner game at the community center or local bar. Then as another poster said, once you bet and took action the time for protest was over.

 

[Frogzilla]

In my experience (sample size of exactly two), after showing an honest and overt display of weakness, players look you up light.

 

[Frogzilla]

And that’s an insane angle to pull as that’s getting mucked more often than not without some very specific room & dealer knowledge, so despite the strong holding I think not-angle.

 

[upNdown]

I don't know about all the other stuff, but I think you should have bet a single big blind on the river.

 

[Budha]

Folding as an angle is a pretty bold strategy - lol.

Honestly, there’s no telling what was going through her mind. I think we forget how bad and clueless we were our first time playing the game. To a complete noob/novice, there really is no logic to what they do - lol.

If she was pretending to be a noob, that shine wears off pretty quick and you should be able to read it.

 

[Jimulacrum]

And that’s an insane angle to pull as that’s getting mucked more often than not without some very specific room & dealer knowledge, so despite the strong holding I think not-angle.

It's bizarre given the hand, though.

If she had a hand of the magnitude of pocket 5s, it makes more sense as an honest mistake. The hand feels valueless, so she moves to just dump it. But then she gets it back, and any person with a smidge of logical ability knows that this would encourage a lot of bluffs from OP, so she makes a crying call.

Doesn't make that kind of sense with queens up, though. That's a decent hand on the end, especially to a noob. Moving to muck to no bet makes no sense at all—unless she expects that the dealer will retrieve it and she'll gain a lot of bluff-catching equity. This would suggest that she not only knew she'd get the hand back but is also more experienced than she's acting, and may have even run this routine before.

I guess it's possible she's truly that clueless, but to muck a hand this strong and then call the bluff reeks of someone who knows the game better than she's letting on.