OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
Yes, if you reread, there was no opportunity for me to check. Big stack bet 80k and I had 400k left on the flop.
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Is everyone going broke here or am I a donk??? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter GetUrShineBox
- Start date
Wait, how could you have been in the big blind but had two people to act in front of you? That action doesn’t make sense. I figured you were out of position to both villains being in the bb no?
Exactly
OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
Oh shit, yeah I must have checked the flop then. My bad, you are correct I confused preflop and post flop action.
I was 100% on the big blind so I must've checked to set "the trap" lol. The trap was broke, FML
I've heard 15+beer @CraigT78 say that more than once....
I know you are joking but honestly the trap was fine - you just ran into a cooler in an annoying spot. Important that you internalize that you played this more or less perfectly and most times it will work out better than it did in this hand! If you begin to think that you made a mistake here, you start misplaying (or getting too scared) in future spots.
Yes and no.
Yes, never second guess yourself because you got coolered.
No, I’m going to disagree that this was played perfectly. @Jimulacrum and @DrStrange have both suggested that it might not be smart, flatting to a flop here. And if you don’t have some level of respect for what those two say, then that’s unfortunate for you. When you’re the short stack at the final table, in the money, under 20 bigs and you’re happy to pay another BB to see a flop three-way, out of position with jack high, maybe you’re not considering all the factors. I’m not saying it’s definitely wrong to flat there. But I think it’s a mistake to say it’s perfect play.
It's not about respect for this or that person, it's that this is a super standard spot. As I said, you could fold preflop but given that you are shortest stack (less ICM pressure) and are getting ~6 to 1 on a call, a hand like J9s is just super standard complete pre. Nothing is perfect but there is standard.
Yeah I just disagree that it’s standard. I disagree that anything is standard at a final table. But I guess what keeps bouncing around in the back of my head is that there are way way more bad flops for us than good ones here, and quite a few that can get us into trouble.
Again, cash game? Sure, 6 to 1 is super standard. Final table? Think it through!
OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
Yup, this is exactly the response I was looking for because I was talking to a buddy and he said he would've just raised to like 200k rather than shove in case he needed to "get away" from the hand. I was like there is ZERO percent chance I'm raising to 200k and then folding my last 200k depending on what my opponent does. It just had me second guessing myself but seems like most agree with my play.
Sometimes you get cooler'd and have to tip your cap.
What makes a final table that special?
OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
Agree J9 is not the greatest thing here and If the flop is J 5 2 where I have top pair w a 9 kicker I could be in trouble BUT being the short stack with blinds about to go to 16/32k/4k I need to try to chip up and the extra 28k to win 210k to me its way too connected of a hand to fold it pre-flop. I'm looking for two pair, trips, or some sort of straight/flush combo draw and that's really it. Anything else I can fold and move on.
The possibility of laddering up in the tournament payouts is the most obvious reason (at least for this final table - it would be different for an STT.) If he gets knocked out first, he triples his money. If he outlasts everybody, he makes 30x his money. And there are incremental increases every time somebody gets knocked out.
For that reason, I say you can’t just go with typical equity concepts in hands like these. Ordinarily, we should all be happy to get our money when we’re 51%. But since these hands are all worth more than typical hands, I think you have to look at things differently. But it’s fair to say that this is just my philosophy - I can’t say I’ve read much about experts taking this position.
Also in my experience, final tables in MTTs are just a different game. Opportunities are worth more, mistakes cost more - you’re simultaneously in shit or get off the pot mode and wait for a better opportunity mode. I’m aware that this sounds like esoteric bullshit, but it’s just a different game.
Exactly! I mean imagine being up against AA here and we bet/fold top two pair?? That would be utter insanity. Nice run.
OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
Another profitable night last night. Played 4 MTT's
- $35 buy in with 36 players - I took 5th place for a payout of $111. Button raised my BB and I have A6 suited with the short stack so I shoved. He priced himself in (which was a super dumb play with 89 off suit in my opinion) especially with him being second shortest stack where the SB covered us both by a lot and him knowing I had to shove. He flopped an 8 and I couldn't catch up.
- $100 MTT - I couldn't get anything going. My ultimate demise was shoving with A9 preflop and getting called by KQ. 4 9 J flop started promising, J Turn and then the 10 gutterball to give him the straight sent me packing
- $55 MTT with 54 players - Made the final table in which the top 7 got paid. This was one of those coulda shoulda woulda tournaments where I made the correct lay downs and would've crushed had I made some bad calls. One memorable hand was me calling a min raise with 22 but someone behind me shoved and another reshoved so I laid them down only to see AK vs AJ and the big ole 2 on the flop. Would've made me an enormous chip leader but I just can't call there. Anyway at the final table with 8 players left there were two very short stacks. Both of them shoved & shoved & shoved and every time they got called they would double up with very mediocre hands. So then I became the short stack with about 9 BB's and look down at AK, 3 folds and then action to me so I shove, fold, fold, fold to the BB who snaps calls with AA. And I'm gone 8th place on the bubble. Not the first time and won't be the last time I walk right into AA on the BB.
- $35 MTT w add on's - I think there were around 30 players, I don't know how many rebuys/addon's. I had a decent stack throughout this entire tourney until the final table when I had to make some difficult lay downs after getting called down to the river where my two pair looked dismal after straight and flush draw cards hit the river. I managed to triple up in a limped pot in the BB with 74 suited when I flopped a flush. I slowed played it on the flop to keep both opponents in the hand to maximize my profit and just prayed that a 4th spade wouldn't come. It didn't and I got the full triple up so I was back in 2nd place in chips. Anyway made it to heads up and even though we started in the hole about 50k vs his 170k I managed to get it to even and felt in control but then lost a few hands and my 66 ran up against his JJ. Took second place and won $622.
Onward and Upward!
- $35 buy in with 36 players - I took 5th place for a payout of $111. Button raised my BB and I have A6 suited with the short stack so I shoved. He priced himself in (which was a super dumb play with 89 off suit in my opinion) especially with him being second shortest stack where the SB covered us both by a lot and him knowing I had to shove. He flopped an 8 and I couldn't catch up.
- $100 MTT - I couldn't get anything going. My ultimate demise was shoving with A9 preflop and getting called by KQ. 4 9 J flop started promising, J Turn and then the 10 gutterball to give him the straight sent me packing
- $55 MTT with 54 players - Made the final table in which the top 7 got paid. This was one of those coulda shoulda woulda tournaments where I made the correct lay downs and would've crushed had I made some bad calls. One memorable hand was me calling a min raise with 22 but someone behind me shoved and another reshoved so I laid them down only to see AK vs AJ and the big ole 2 on the flop. Would've made me an enormous chip leader but I just can't call there. Anyway at the final table with 8 players left there were two very short stacks. Both of them shoved & shoved & shoved and every time they got called they would double up with very mediocre hands. So then I became the short stack with about 9 BB's and look down at AK, 3 folds and then action to me so I shove, fold, fold, fold to the BB who snaps calls with AA. And I'm gone 8th place on the bubble. Not the first time and won't be the last time I walk right into AA on the BB.
- $35 MTT w add on's - I think there were around 30 players, I don't know how many rebuys/addon's. I had a decent stack throughout this entire tourney until the final table when I had to make some difficult lay downs after getting called down to the river where my two pair looked dismal after straight and flush draw cards hit the river. I managed to triple up in a limped pot in the BB with 74 suited when I flopped a flush. I slowed played it on the flop to keep both opponents in the hand to maximize my profit and just prayed that a 4th spade wouldn't come. It didn't and I got the full triple up so I was back in 2nd place in chips. Anyway made it to heads up and even though we started in the hole about 50k vs his 170k I managed to get it to even and felt in control but then lost a few hands and my 66 ran up against his JJ. Took second place and won $622.
Onward and Upward!
Jimulacrum
Full House
One of the players in my tourney league made a fold somewhat like this a few weeks ago. (Caveat: I believe this was on the bubble, but it may have been one place into the money. I don't remember exactly.)
He was SB with a short stack, I was BB with a big stack, and he straight-up folded 22 without even completing. Said out loud that's what he was doing too, because he's the kind of guy who likes to talk about it.
I absolutely would have raised the vast majority of the time, and he knew this, so limping was pointless. I also have the image of someone who makes super-loose calls*, so raising/shoving was a crap option too. The way he saw it, playing the hand at all would set him up to flip for his stack way too often to be worth the risk. With other short-stacked players in the mix, he had a whole orbit ahead of him for them to bust out.
And that's exactly what happened. He ended up gaining two places on that fold.
In OP's story, multiple players have comparably short stacks. That's a big deal. They're just as threatened by the blinds as OP is. Quietly folding your way through the blinds sets them up for spots like this annoying J9 hand, where they're forced to either fold and feel bad or take a gamble that could bust them. The final table can move fast, and even just that one orbit of hands could totally change things.
Not exactly true, but not exactly false either. The truth is that I use a LAG style a lot in this game because the players respond badly to it, either by giving up too easily or by chasing me to the river with one pair. Lovely for table image. I actually have a running shtick with the player in this story about how I'm going to bust him with A2o (because I did, once, and he never forgot), and now everyone looks sideways at me on flops like 229.
Is this even a question ?
Since you did not fold pre (no shame in that), no other option to shove now you binked the flop.
Only 4 cards left to improve and a LOT of bad cards
Only 2 J's & 2 9's left & 3 2's (so two combo's)...all the rest is drawing
Since you did not fold pre (no shame in that), no other option to shove now you binked the flop.
Only 4 cards left to improve and a LOT of bad cards
Only 2 J's & 2 9's left & 3 2's (so two combo's)...all the rest is drawing
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Completely different spot though just to be clear. I would either fold or shove 22 BvB depending on the specifics (what is the actual bubble, how tight is the bb, how many bbs am I effective etc.)
I think there is just a lot of lack of understanding re: tournament play (which is why they are so profitable for those that do understand the math and some sense of ICM). Many at the low stakes (and you see this in a lot of PCF forums because those are the stakes that are mostly played here) are hyper concerned with not busting out. Again, nothing wrong with that, but in a turbo structure (which is most of what everyone plays) you simply will be less profitable if you are overly concerned with busting. Your edge will often come from being appropriately aggressive, knowing that completing hands like J9s is profitable etc. I love playing against players who are folding J9s in the bb here because it makes it wayyyy more proftable for me to raise hands like 66/77/88/AT/KT/QT because I know I'm getting folds that I really shouldn't be. Not "wanting to flip" and "waiting for a better spot" is how you end up min cashing more but rarely winning tournaments. Since most of the $ is heavily weighted to the top few spots, we want to be focused on how to get there!
60 - 80 BI's...but we are talking joker stars here...so multiply with 27
^^ this ^^
First rule of tourney from my coach....don't play for the money, play to win
If you are too concerned about cashing, you are playing above your stakes...often bubble time is my time to go agro and stealing 3 or 4 BB's each orbit is very profitable
Jimulacrum
Full House
Different spot in terms of the action, yes, but same principle at play: sometimes it's better to sit back and let others do the gambling.
I agree that you should shoot for the top spots in most tournaments, as it's true that's where most of the money is, but it's not where all the money is.
You materially gain with every person who busts out while you remain in the tournament, and this also serves the goal of getting you close to the top prize.
The question with regard to OP's hand is whether the full spectrum of outcomes that can come from calling with J9 here are worth passing on the gain-via-abstention I just described, and I don't think that's the case. I think this hand will only rarely get you paid off big, and the rest of the time you're either abandoning the extra 28K or needlessly throwing your whole stack at a dominated hand.
I understand that folding too much in the BB can make you exploitable. I'm not advocating for a general strategy of folding the BB to a min raise with anything J9 or weaker, all the time. But in this spot, with these stacks and this action, let the BB go and save the bullet you've got left for a better spot.
Tutorial on how to play J9s at the high stakes:
OP
OP
GetUrShineBox
Flush
God if my opponents only had 88 and KK. Hahaha
utgtrash
Straight
in general I’d also call the raise to see a flop here, I think because ur sub 15bb and about to get worse the next hand it’s worth considering if that means you should play tighter and just fold pre.
I think since you’re shortest right now, and therefore only have the expectation of coming in last place, you are incentivized to take the good price and gamble. You’re definitely gambling with J9s but the question is, is this a good spot to gamble or not, based on the other considerations like stack sizes etc. my opinion is this is definitely a spot you don’t want to pass up. If you whiff and check fold, you’re not in much worse chip position and still have enough to force folds by shoving unopened pots. Otherwise this is a plain old cooler and I think u played more or less perfectly.
I think since you’re shortest right now, and therefore only have the expectation of coming in last place, you are incentivized to take the good price and gamble. You’re definitely gambling with J9s but the question is, is this a good spot to gamble or not, based on the other considerations like stack sizes etc. my opinion is this is definitely a spot you don’t want to pass up. If you whiff and check fold, you’re not in much worse chip position and still have enough to force folds by shoving unopened pots. Otherwise this is a plain old cooler and I think u played more or less perfectly.
grandmeme
3 of a Kind
Actually now that I think about this spot more, on 15 BB I am most likely completing with J9cc (was 50/50 before). But my intention will be to jam clubs, J, 9, or low cards with some backdoors available.
Nerxa
High Hand
You are supposed to defend J9s on the bb vs a chipleader min raise.
Then, you should shove this flop with all draws you hit vs a cbet, so you have to take the same line with made hands. You are last stack, you have no icm pressure on you. Double up.
Remember that this board is better for the defender, you have to rep it with QT/T8 and all top pairs, top 2 is great.
We don't care when he calls and you get counterfeited on the turned 2 vs his AA. If you shoved the play was right. If you flated and got cracked, shame
This texture brings a lot of nut changing cards on turns and rivers, fast play is better vs overpairs/one pairs/draws
Then, you should shove this flop with all draws you hit vs a cbet, so you have to take the same line with made hands. You are last stack, you have no icm pressure on you. Double up.
Remember that this board is better for the defender, you have to rep it with QT/T8 and all top pairs, top 2 is great.
We don't care when he calls and you get counterfeited on the turned 2 vs his AA. If you shoved the play was right. If you flated and got cracked, shame
This texture brings a lot of nut changing cards on turns and rivers, fast play is better vs overpairs/one pairs/drawsI appreciate that, but I still have the question - just because a play is generally correct, does that mean it’s correct in an in the money final table stacks be damned situation? I think not, but I don’t have any authority to back that up.
utgtrash
Straight
part of the justification is that it is in an in-the-money final table situation where you are the shortest of 7 stacks and therefore icm hurts everyone else more than you. you are MORE incentivized to gamble your way up than other potentially gambling their way down to your chip position or busted. if you were more in the middle of the stacks, you'd be unwilling to risk even one BB. you could get a mathematical answer by calculating the chip EV of playing J9s in this spot vs how much cash equity is at stake, but intuitively i at least know you are less at risk than the other stacks. I also can't tell you how much this would be +/- spot when you run that (the authority required) but it is a solvable problem.
it's also important you can fold post flop and still have enough bb to force say, blinds to fold when you get the button and it's folded to you. an argument might be 12 bb or whatever you have if you check fold flop is no longer enough, and therefore that 1bb you called wasn't worth it. but I would still call in this specific spot.
Nerxa
High Hand
The hand plays well. You should defend a lot vs chip leaders, especially with a shortstack. They will make calls that will double you up and put you back in.
You are in the money, but you don't have to protect your stack since you're last. If you were second in chips the hand would be defended and played more passively to avoid busting. As you grow shorter you want to be more agressive with your flopped pairs/draws to leverage the fold equity your short stack still has.
J9s plays well as a defend even oop but works really bad as a shove when called because you will get called lighter by hands like JT and QJ by chip leaders if they have any form of knowledge about icm and ranges you should have.
In his spot i'm opening almost 65-70% of hands, so I will defend with a decent range vs a shortstack shove who should be shoving all A high
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