JJ on the cutoff, last hand of the night (2 Viewers)

[bentax1978]

This isn't a very involved strategy question, just wondered about one aspect of the hand and how others might play it.

I'ts 3am and we're playing the second to last hand after a 7 hour session. This is a new game for me, found it on craigslist, so I'm the new guy. $0.50/$1.00 NLHE, $100 buy-ins. Skill levels at the game varied, but overall it was a very soft game. It was fairly easy to figure out what people had, and even a moderate amount of aggression was enough to take down pots most of the night. Not a lot of rebuys (at least relative to what I'm used to in a cash game), so by the end of the night, there's not much more than $700-800 on the table, and over half of that is in front of me.

UTG ($47)
Hero ($420)
Button ($100)
SB ($70)
BB ($140)

UTG opens with a raise to $4. My read on him is that he's been pretty tight with his hand selection most of the night, playing far fewer hands than most, but with only $47 left in front of him and only a hand left after this one, I felt like he's somewhat willing to double up or bust out (that goes for the button too, who asked before the hand started if I wanted to flip for stacks when we were finished because he didn't want to end the night even).

So anyway, UTG raised to $4, action is now on Hero. Hero looks down at JJ and raises to $20. Button calls the $20, SB folds, BB calls the $20. UTG, the original raiser, goes all-in for $47. $107.50 in the pot, action is on Hero with two callers (with $80 and $120 remaining, respectively) left to act after him.

So what should Hero do? Call or jam?

 

[detroitdad]

Jam

 

[jbutler]

Considering the benefits of jamming beyond the EV, I lean heavily toward a jam.

 

[Mr Tree]

Effective stacks are shallow given how little everyone else has. Jam all day

 

[trever]

As the new guy winning big in a very soft game, I'm mostly focused on getting invited back for the next game right now.

If the table seems to enjoy your aggressive gambly style, go ahead and repop it and play for stacks. If they are a bit overwhelmed, slow down and just call.

 

[slisk250]

Jamalama ding dong

 

[justsomedude]

As the new guy winning big in a very soft game, I'm mostly focused on getting invited back for the next game right now.

^^^^^ this

I found a local Craigslist game last summer and ended up taking down most of the guys (by luck really, on crazy rivers) over the course of the night. Needless to say, even though most recognized my win as luck, I haven't been invited back since. Oh well.

 

[bentax1978]

As the new guy winning big in a very soft game, I'm mostly focused on getting invited back for the next game right now.

^^^^^ this

I found a local Craigslist game last summer and ended up taking down most of the guys (by luck really, on crazy rivers) over the course of the night. Needless to say, even though most recognized my win as luck, I haven't been invited back since. Oh well.

If the table seems to enjoy your aggressive gambly style, go ahead and repop it and play for stacks. If they are a bit overwhelmed, slow down and just call.

This's a good point. I wasn't really worried about not getting invited back, as I hit it off well with them right away and I already knew I was going back this Friday. No one seemed to mind the aggression (and I certainly wasn't the only aggressive player at the table). The game remained friendly all night, even more so as the night progressed and the table got shorter. I was showing a lot of hands and explaining my thoughts and reasons for making some of the moves I was making (when asked). I felt most of the players there were genuinely interested in improving their play and discussing aspects of the hands. I told them about SOHE, but I don't think they're quite ready for that (yet).

I even explained slow rolling and nutter butters, mostly because they asked why in the world I was taking this picture (to post in the live stacks section, which I then never got around to doing). And yes, the next thing I'll work on is the chips

 

[Forty4]

I think you just call. You're going to walk out ahead for the night and it looks like you're giving some action back. Besides the button will probably jam, but if he doesn't you get to see what the flop is. I'd probably take a very passive approach on the hand knowing that it's the last hand of the night and this is the hand they will remember. I'm not advocating dumping off the $140 that the BB has but it's only $27 more into a very nice pot. It's up to you if you want to preserve the win if the button jam's but it allows you to see what him and the BB do before you decide if you want to take the JJ's into a four handed pot. Plus if they don't jam and overcards hit they can feel they out played you and you gave up <$50. It's all depends on if you feel you'll get the invite back.

Edit: I see that you're not worried about the invite back but I'm still worried about the button and his action as he doesn't want the night to end and wants to flip for stacks. I still think you take the passive approach because if you jam he's probably calling and then the BB will have to call. The passive approach allows you to see the action behind.

 

[bentax1978]

I think you just call. You're going to walk out ahead for the night and it looks like you're giving some action back. Besides the button will probably jam, but if he doesn't you get to see what the flop is. I'd probably take a very passive approach on the hand knowing that it's the last hand of the night and this is the hand they will remember. I'm not advocating dumping off the $140 that the BB has but it's only $27 more into a very nice pot. It's up to you if you want to preserve the win if the button jam's but it allows you to see what him and the BB do before you decide if you want to take the JJ's into a four handed pot. Plus if they don't jam and overcards hit they can feel they out played you and you gave up <$50. It's all depends on if you feel you'll get the invite back.

All good thoughts/points above. So how often, in this situation, do we expect the button to jam if I just call? The button (and BB for that matter) had an opportunity to jam after I raised to $20, but both opted to just call. Based on that, I have to assume I am ahead of both of them as I can't see either of them just calling the $20 with QQ/KK/AA. So taking my future image and the potential lasting impression of this hand out of the equation, I think my goal (from a poker perspective) is to try and get the button's and BB's money in preflop in this situation. And if that's the case, is the best way to do that by calling (and counting on the button/BB to jam) or by jamming myself and either getting a 3+ way pot if they call or a heads up pot with a decent amount of extra money in there if they fold?

 

[onerand]

Ok to shove with jacks here in a new game. Everyone will understand. I would hesitate to isolate in a new home game with 76 or k8 in this situation, although it would be the right play.

 

[Forty4]

All good thoughts/points above. So how often, in this situation, do we expect the button to jam if I just call? The button (and BB for that matter) had an opportunity to jam after I raised to $20, but both opted to just call. Based on that, I have to assume I am ahead of both of them as I can't see either of them just calling the $20 with QQ/KK/AA. So taking my future image and the potential lasting impression of this hand out of the equation, I think my goal (from a poker perspective) is to try and get the button's and BB's money in preflop in this situation. And if that's the case, is the best way to do that by calling (and counting on the button/BB to jam) or by jamming myself and either getting a 3+ way pot if they call or a heads up pot with a decent amount of extra money in there if they fold?

I think from a pure perspective you jam. However, they could know from history (or have realized the situation) that UTG was going to jam after you raised. You did elude to that fact in your original message. I would rather have it heads up but I don't think you're going to get that situation with the stacks so I don't think jamming is going to get them to fold.

 

[Mr Tree]

I think from a pure perspective you jam. However, they could know from history (or have realized the situation) that UTG was going to jam after you raised. You did elude to that fact in your original message. I would rather have it heads up but I don't think you're going to get that situation with the stacks so I don't think jamming is going to get them to fold.

I don't think you want them to fold. There is a good chance you are going to get a call from a lesser pair (88-1010)

 

[bentax1978]

I don't think you want them to fold. There is a good chance you are going to get a call from a lesser pair (88-1010)

100% don't want them to fold, and would very much like a 4-way all-in (from a poker perspective) as I was quite confident that I wasn't behind either of the other two hands given that they call (and didn't raise) my $20 raise.

 

[mummel]

Jam

What does Jam mean?

 

[bentax1978]

What does Jam mean?

Raise/all-in.

 

[Anthony Martino]

 

[BGinGA]

Fold, and show the jacks after the hand is over. Tip the host $50. Get invited back.

 

[detroitdad]

Fold, and show the jacks after the hand is over. Tip the host $50. Get invited back.

Except shove instead of fold.

If you win. Bring a nice bottle of whiskey to donate to the next game

 

[Forty4]

100% don't want them to fold, and would very much like a 4-way all-in (from a poker perspective) as I was quite confident that I wasn't behind either of the other two hands given that they call (and didn't raise) my $20 raise.

I agree with this assessment. So is the question what is the best play to get all their chips? Or should you not try to felt everyone in the game?

 

[Mr Tree]

I agree with this assessment. So is the question what is the best play to get all their chips? Or should you not try to felt everyone in the game?

Given the shallow stacks I think many good hands you are dominating will have to call.

 

[bentax1978]

I agree with this assessment. So is the question what is the best play to get all their chips? Or should you not try to felt everyone in the game?

For the purposes of this discussion, the question is how to maximize the number of chips in front of me

Whether or not felting the entire table is a good topic to discuss, but not really what I was wondering about.




going to go grab lunch now, I'll post what happened and my thoughts in a bit

 

[Forty4]

Given the shallow stacks I think many good hands you are dominating will have to call.

Agree with this as well. Part of the reason I say just call and play passive. We don't really have time for the variance to swing back around. It may be short sighted but it's also a narrow time line given that we more than likely won't be able to win the $140 back the next hand.

 

[bentax1978]

Agree with this as well. Part of the reason I say just call and play passive. We don't really have time for the variance to swing back around. It may be short sighted but it's also a narrow time line given that we more than likely won't be able to win the $140 back the next hand.

I'm not worried about not having time to win the $140 back should I lose the hand. Poker games don't really end, we just take (sometimes long) breaks to work and sleep before getting back to the table

 

[detroitdad]

going to go grab lunch now, I'll post what happened and my thoughts in a bit

I call bullshit

 

[bentax1978]

going to go grab lunch now, I'll post what happened and my thoughts in a bit

I call bullshit

I really am grabbing lunch.

(Or I work at a pizza place)

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

What's the difference between jam and jelly?

 

[bentax1978]

I'm back. And, just to let @jbutler know, I had the broccoli/ricotta pizza pictured in the lower right. Delicious.

Ok, so back to poker.

Unfortunately, the rest of the hand (and the outcome) isn't very exciting. After the $47 all-in, I thought for a few seconds, but to be honest never really considered anything but a jam. I was 100% sure that the two $20 callers did not have QQ/KK/AA, so I was more than happy to have them call me. In fact, part of the purpose of this post was to see if people thought that jamming was a bad idea in terms of trying to get more action from the two deeper stacks. All-in guy turns over AA, I think to myself I was fortunate he only had $47 to start the hand. I didn't improve and I lost the pot (which is how it should be when your JJ runs into a short-stack with AA).

Obviously I was going to lose $47 to the aces on that hand no matter what happened, no need to think twice about that. The only question is should I have done anything differently to try and build action with the other two players and perhaps win (or lose) a side pot.

 

[jbutler]

View attachment 40189

These are exactly the same chips (with a different decal) that I play with every Sunday night. The real pity is the guys who own the club just bought a great $3k custom table and are still using this garbage. I've got them very close to a Game On order, though...

 

[Forty4]

Unfortunately, the rest of the hand (and the outcome) isn't very exciting. After the $47 all-in, I thought for a few seconds, but to be honest never really considered anything but a jam. I was 100% sure that the two $20 callers did not have QQ/KK/AA, so I was more than happy to have them call me. In fact, part of the purpose of this post was to see if people thought that jamming was a bad idea in terms of trying to get more action from the two deeper stacks. All-in guy turns over AA, I think to myself I was fortunate he only had $47 to start the hand. I didn't improve and I lost the pot (which is how it should be when your JJ runs into a short-stack with AA).

Obviously I was going to lose $47 to the aces on that hand no matter what happened, no need to think twice about that. The only question is should I have done anything differently to try and build action with the other two players and perhaps win (or lose) a side pot.

I'm kind of surprised the button didn't call, but there was one more hand. I can see the BB folding. I'm not sure you could have done anything differently that would have resulted in more money in the pot for you to win as I'm pretty sure all action dried up after the flop.