KK facing two preflop raises 1/2 (1 Viewer)

[Anthony Martino]

Hero has been at this table only one round so far, nothing majorly noteworthy has happened and has little data on opponents.

Stack sizes are approximate:

Hero: $250
EP Raiser: $200
MP Reraiser: $80


Folds to EP who makes it $10, folds to MP who reraises to $25

Hero in LP looks down at

How do you play it?

 

[krafticus]

$100

 

[Phantom]

How many to act behind you and what are their approximate stack sizes? Do you think the Button and Blinds will fold if you raise enough to put MP all-in?

Lean towards a raise to make it around $60-$70.

 

[Anthony Martino]

How many to act behind you and what are their approximate stack sizes? Do you think the Button and Blinds will fold if you raise enough to put MP all-in?

Lean towards a raise to make it around $60-$70.

Four players behind me to act, stack sizes at the table range from $80-250 or so. I can't imagine the button and blinds will call facing three raises without very premium hands

 

[Phantom]

Four players behind me to act, stack sizes at the table range from $80-250 or so. I can't imagine the button and blinds will call facing three raises without very premium hands

Bet $70.

 

[gopherblue]

$100

Agreed. I want position on flop so I’m taking a stab at driving out all those left to act.

 

[CraigT78]

I'm in the $100 camp as well

 

[v1pe]

$110-$125 IMO. You want to isolate either of them.

Call the EP shove or shove any non ace board if he flats and you get checked to.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero can try to be really cute - raising to $50, expecting to get reraised all-in by the $80 short stack and then snap them all off. But strange villains at a new table aren't the right customers for a fancy play.

I think a raise to $90 should do the trick. EP raiser and anyone else at the table is likely to fold everything but the tippy-top of their range. At least in most cases - unknown villains can be quite surprising.

I feel Hero is pot committed almost no matter what, given no villain reads. Maybe would break my spirit . . . maybe not.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I am going to shove. Get everybody to fold except the MP reraiser.

 

[Danger mouse]

I’m looking to get this in. $100 sounds good.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Hero opts to shove. Sometimes players in these low limit games make that play with marginal hands that don't want to see a flop and showdown (i.e. pocket 6's, AJ type hands) and given the short stacks reraise, I'm hoping he feels committed with whatever hand he raised a good chunk of his own stack with in this spot.

The original raiser folds, the short stack starts trying to talk to me to get a read, says he has AQ, shows me a Queen, then tells me he has pocket Queens. I just go into Hellmuth mode and put my head down into my hands and sit motionless with my eyes closed. Eventually he folds, le sigh

 

[Danger mouse]

A shove is way to strong imo. But live and learn.

Doubt he had either QQ or AQ just showing the Q. Probably trying to save face from raising KQ or QJ type hands. As he should be going with AQ with his stack size.

1/2 players do strange things though.

 

[Steve Birrer]

A shove is way to strong imo. But live and learn.

Doubt he had either QQ or AQ just showing the Q. Probably trying to save face from raising KQ or QJ type hands. As he should be going with AQ with his stack size.

1/2 players do strange things though.

This is why poker is such a fascinating game. I totally disagree that a shove is way to strong. Any bet you make is essentially potting the MP reraiser. So I don't believe that Hero's bet changes his decision. If anything I think a shove tends to tell the MP reraiser that Hero is trying to push every body out to avoid a flop and is more likely to induce a call than get a fold. If MP reraiser was on AA, KK, QQ, or AK he is probably calling no matter what Hero bets. AQ or JJ he probably has to think hard. Any pair under JJ I don't think he hesitates and folds. So Hero's shove to me is a good play.

 

[Danger mouse]

This is why poker is such a fascinating game. I totally disagree that a shove is way to strong. Any bet you make is essentially potting the MP reraiser. So I don't believe that Hero's bet changes his decision. If anything I think a shove tends to tell the MP reraiser that Hero is trying to push every body out to avoid a flop and is more likely to induce a call than get a fold. If MP reraiser was on AA, KK, QQ, or AK he is probably calling no matter what Hero bets. AQ or JJ he probably has to think hard. Any pair under JJ I don't think he hesitates and folds. So Hero's shove to me is a good play.

I’d agree if targeting the mp alone but I feel we should still be gunning for the original raiser also. A shove folds his entire range except the very top. And you would think mp gets in regardless considering he’s already committed over 1/4 of his stack pre.

 

[Anthony Martino]

But a reraise to $50, 60 or $100 just looks like it's begging for a call. A shove looks like I might not want a call, which might induce folks to put their money in bad against me.

 

[Danger mouse]

But a reraise to $50, 60 or $100 just looks like it's begging for a call. A shove looks like I might not want a call, which might induce folks to put their money in bad against me.

Ok but what else would you shove 100bb pre here?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Ok but what else would you shove 100bb pre here?

Like I said, I've seen plenty of players at this limit overplay hands that they don't want to see a flop, pocket 6's, Tens, AJ suited or offsuit. So they make massive overbets or shoves hoping they just win the pot right there because they're scared of being "drawn out on"

I figured a standard reraise after two raisers given the shallowness of the stacks at that point looks stronger (to me at least) than a shove.

 

[Danger mouse]

I don’t see how someone doesn’t call $100 bet but would call a $250 bet because it “looks weaker”. But if they do at that game overbet jam every time you have KK+ imo

Also do these others who jam these hands have over 100bb deep when they jam? Do they get called by weaker hands when they do it? Just because others do it doesn’t mean that you doing means the same thing. Unless you are balancing your range to include some 4bet bluff jams imo

 

[CraigT78]

Hero opts to shove. Sometimes players in these low limit games make that play with marginal hands that don't want to see a flop and showdown (i.e. pocket 6's, AJ type hands) and given the short stacks reraise, I'm hoping he feels committed with whatever hand he raised a good chunk of his own stack with in this spot.

The original raiser folds, the short stack starts trying to talk to me to get a read, says he has AQ, shows me a Queen, then tells me he has pocket Queens. I just go into Hellmuth mode and put my head down into my hands and sit motionless with my eyes closed. Eventually he folds, le sigh

You should have asked him to show, and you'd fold

 

[BukNaked36]

I tend to triple previous bet so raise to $75 then jam any non-ace flop

 

[FDLmold]

It is nice that you are now posting hands that you actually win.

 

[Frogzilla]

The experts say to never cold call 3-bets. Only raise or fold. Pretty clear raise-make it whatever you usually raise. I do 3-4x so probably 90ish

 

[DrStrange]

There are plenty of times I would cold call a 3-bet.

If I am the original raiser, a significant chunk of my range becomes a calling range - say I raised from the cut off with pocket sixes. Assuming the stacks are deep enough, the pocket pair becomes a set mining opportunity. A 4-bet with pocket sixes is, at best, a semi-bluff. But the hand is too good to fold.

Cold calling a 3-bet is situational when I am not the original raiser. There is always the risk of getting 4-bet - so knowing your villains is critical. Stepping into a slug-fest between two LAGs can turn you into collateral damage. On the other hand, the payoff can be sweet! There has been several memorable hands in my life where the other players "forgot" I was in the hand until the trap was sprung. Sweet, sweet victories those were.

Never say never -=- DrStrange

 

[ilovegravy]

0% chance he had QQ. He put in 1/3 of his stack already. He'd call the rest off with QQ in a heartbeat. I think a shove and a $100 bet accomplish about the same thing here. Both put MP all in and both probably get EP to fold out most of his holdings (save for a few obvious hands).

 

[Tanner Kaza]

$75 from me. Shoving most non Ace flops if we just get called but $75 is more likely to induce a shove or a fold with these short of stacks preflop. I think a preflop shove loses value and a $75 raise likely still gets a fold from 1 of the 2 players that raised. I'm happy most of the time to get called here preflop no matter which size 4 bet you would prefer.

 

[Anthony Martino]

What's funny is some players were like "what are you doing? Don't you want to play for high hand?"

 

[upNdown]

Sure. You might catch quads.

 

[Gunnar]

What time of day ?

 

[Steve Birrer]

So if you raise to say $100 then the original raiser is folding or jamming his monster hands. Which ends up putting Hero all in anyway. And any bet is going to have the MP reraiser all in. So the end result of hero jamming or just raising 3-4X seems to garner the same outcome to me.