Tourney Last rebuy and add-on (2 Viewers)

horseshoez

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I’m sure the answers are out there for this when combing through multiple threads but figure this is quicker.

T5K 20-24 player tourney with blinds starting at 25/50. Buy in is $20 plus misc fees.

1) Last chance to rebuy during first break or second break if any?

2) Add-on amount equivalent to how much and are you allowing the add-on plus rebuy combo to reset ones stack assuming they’re below a certain level?

3) Allowing rebuys or not period and if yes, limit on how many to try to keep people on their game?
 
1.) I like rebuys to go for around 2 hours, maybe a little longer.
2.) I dont do add ons.
2a) The second part of two is a different question. at what point do you allow rebuy? I have decided to go with only a busted stack can rebuy, but could see the benefit of allowing a rebuy anytime below a starting stack.
3.) Rebuys are fun because you can build a larger prizepool and they also allow people to stay in action if they get busted early. Probably best to mix it up and run some rebuys and some freezouts. When I run a rebuy its unlimited rebuys in the rebuy period.
 
Personally, I:
- limit rebuys to 2 per player (policed with rebuy chips) hence a max outlay of $60 if someone rebuys twice
- allow double rebuys after the second break (if you have both rebuy chips you can trade both in for double starting stack)
- only allow rebuys when felted, no add-ons
- find there's a natural point where rebuys are no longer worth it but I don't stop anyone from contributing to the prize pool (which happens a lot BTW, usually with mutters of "chip and chair")
 
Rebuys could be allowed on a remaining BB basis, something like 10 BBs (stricter) or 20 BBs (larger).
That could mean loosing 95% or more of the initial stack early, or just 50-40% of the initial stack later on.
You could allow instantly a rebuy with a free add-on included, at the end of the rebuy period, for people who have endured the rebuy period without having been eligible for a rebuy. It's up to them to judge if it's worth it.
But, again, it's all up to @BGinGA to judge if correct:)
 
I’m sure the answers are out there for this when combing through multiple threads but figure this is quicker.

T5K 20-24 player tourney with blinds starting at 25/50. Buy in is $20 plus misc fees.

1) Last chance to rebuy during first break or second break if any?

2) Add-on amount equivalent to how much and are you allowing the add-on plus rebuy combo to reset ones stack assuming they’re below a certain level?

3) Allowing rebuys or not period and if yes, limit on how many to try to keep people on their game?

Ours is a very social $20 event. Breaks every hour, and rebuy ends during the second break. StartingStack/BB= 20 (or pretty close).

I rarely do add-ons. I'm really not trying to milk my players for every dollar, it's all about the fun... but with a prize.

We limit it to 1 rebuy per player. Easy to keep track of, and it prevents deep pockets from spooking away the players that only have $20 to spend.

By allowing rebuys from 7-9pm, nearly everybody is assured a good evening of fun. Occasionally, a player will suffer their 2nd KO before 9pm, but that has happened just 22 times out of 965 runners. Only 7 times has someone been dealt their second KO within the first hour (<1%).

But, again, it's all up to @BGinGA to judge if correct:)
I can pretty much tell you that BG would not approve of rebuys that equal 10 BB, and probably prefers 20-30. I don't like to go below 20, but it does depend on the group. If your players are happy limping into pots with 7 BB, then rebuying with 10-15 BB isn't terrible, because you are getting plenty of play (blind structure dependent, of course).

Finally, I like to offer my players the ability to rebuy without being felted. However, when you rebuy, you forfeit any chips you had remaining in play. This prevents players that are short-stacked from open-shoving with nothing when the level is about to end.
 
@Poker Zombie I meant being eligible for a rebuy when you 're not absolutely felted but left with 10 (let's say) BBs, till when the rebuy (of a full starting stack) is still worth 20 BBs at least. And, if you survived till the end of the rebuy period without being elgible for a rebuy (i.e. >10BBs), you could have the instant right for an augmented (added-on) rebuy of let's say 30BBs.
If the requirement for an (one and only) rebuy is as strict as above, why put the remaining chips of a player out of play?
 
I get where you are coming from now.

It's not that your system won't work (it will), but it feels needlessly complex. No casino (that I ever hear of) uses that method. You need to be down to X BB to rebuy (a constantly shifting number). The host has to verify that the player is at or below X. This would get rough if your game spreads out to 3-4 tables.

I also don't like add-ons. Basically, only a fool would reject an add-on. So why not charge $40 for a buy-in instead of $20, and just give everybody 2x the starting chips - unless your goal is to put the players with less expendable income (or the fools) at a disadvantage.

By putting the remaining chips out of play (the system used for rebuy WSOP events) players make their own strategic choices, for example: A player is knocked to 1/4 starting stack with 3 minutes left in the rebuy period. Are they better to shove to double up to 1/2 stack and hope to get in one more shoving hand? Do they risk shoving (and thus giving extra chips to their opponents)? Is it better to discard the chips they have in play and just go to a fresh stack?
 
Understood.
No way I was thinking beyond 2 tables max (basically, my consideration is social/educational single table, keeping the weaker players as long as possible in the game).
With more seasoned players, we just play cash.
 
Ours is a very social $20 event. Breaks every hour, and rebuy ends during the second break. StartingStack/BB= 20 (or pretty close).

I rarely do add-ons. I'm really not trying to milk my players for every dollar, it's all about the fun... but with a prize.

We limit it to 1 rebuy per player. Easy to keep track of, and it prevents deep pockets from spooking away the players that only have $20 to spend.

By allowing rebuys from 7-9pm, nearly everybody is assured a good evening of fun. Occasionally, a player will suffer their 2nd KO before 9pm, but that has happened just 22 times out of 965 runners. Only 7 times has someone been dealt their second KO within the first hour (<1%).


I can pretty much tell you that BG would not approve of rebuys that equal 10 BB, and probably prefers 20-30. I don't like to go below 20, but it does depend on the group. If your players are happy limping into pots with 7 BB, then rebuying with 10-15 BB isn't terrible, because you are getting plenty of play (blind structure dependent, of course).

Finally, I like to offer my players the ability to rebuy without being felted. However, when you rebuy, you forfeit any chips you had remaining in play. This prevents players that are short-stacked from open-shoving with nothing when the level is about to end.

One of the things I debated is what’s mentioned here. Considering it’s mostly a social event, the add-on’s tend to allow deeper pockets to pile up and have an immediate advantage over those that either aren’t or want to stick to their guns and go with their stack as-is.

I think I like the $40 re-buy option to buy 2x starting chips and just get it over with rather than add-on + rebuy combo.
 
I used to allow rebuys only when felted but more recently relaxed this to allow them at 20% or below starting stack with the remaining chips being surrendered. This eliminates the issue of a player being unable to rebuy due to having a couple of chips left and getting eliminated soon after. Uptake is usually around a third of the field.

At my next tournament I am going to experiment with allowing 2 half stack rebuys per player at 50% or below the starting stack. Essentially an option to top up twice during the first couple of hours. I'm anticipating a slightly bigger uptake.

I'm not 100% sure how I feel about it as the fundamental reason for rebuys in a friendly tournament is to allow players to continue having fun for a little longer (imo) whereas this risks feeling less like a second chance and more like a pot building exercise. I'll see how it goes.
 
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I get where you are coming from now.

It's not that your system won't work (it will), but it feels needlessly complex. No casino (that I ever hear of) uses that method. You need to be down to X BB to rebuy (a constantly shifting number). The host has to verify that the player is at or below X. This would get rough if your game spreads out to 3-4 tables.

I also don't like add-ons. Basically, only a fool would reject an add-on. So why not charge $40 for a buy-in instead of $20, and just give everybody 2x the starting chips - unless your goal is to put the players with less expendable income (or the fools) at a disadvantage.

By putting the remaining chips out of play (the system used for rebuy WSOP events) players make their own strategic choices, for example: A player is knocked to 1/4 starting stack with 3 minutes left in the rebuy period. Are they better to shove to double up to 1/2 stack and hope to get in one more shoving hand? Do they risk shoving (and thus giving extra chips to their opponents)? Is it better to discard the chips they have in play and just go to a fresh stack?

An easy way around this is to allow rebuys anytime a player is below starting stack.

Any system which forces players Allin in order to rebuy encourages loose, aggressive behaviour the lower the stack and the closer you get to the end of the rebuys. @Poker Zombie's system of forcing a surrender still serves the same purpose of forcing someone to rebuy when stacked so why not take a shot by shoving first?

If you can rebuy anytime below starting it keeps the stacks of those who haven't busted equal to or higher than anyone who busts and therefore discourages any short stacks from shoving just before the rebuy ends because if they can rebuy anytime below starting they will have more total chips if they keep their stack to the end of the rebuys.

Essentially if you allow rebuys
a) it should be as a way to get more chips in play
b) it should be for protection against early bad beats
c) it should be done in a way that least influences the behaviour of the players as the rebuy period ends.
 
so why not take a shot by shoving first?
The difference is that you are giving chips to your opponent. From a purely strategic standpoint, this becomes -EV, giving more chips to your opponent. I won't even get into how unfair this would appear if you were a shortstack and shoved into your spouse with 2 rags.

Conversely, if you can rebuy anytime below starting, nearly everyone is going to rebuy after paying the BB (or limping pre-flop). You may as well just charge 2x the buy-in and get it out of the way. Also, as mentioned before, rebuys if you are below X involve a chip count by the host, which could be inconvenient at 3-4 tables.
 
The difference is that you are giving chips to your opponent. From a purely strategic standpoint, this becomes -EV, giving more chips to your opponent. I won't even get into how unfair this would appear if you were a shortstack and shoved into your spouse with 2 rags.

Conversely, if you can rebuy anytime below starting, nearly everyone is going to rebuy after paying the BB (or limping pre-flop). You may as well just charge 2x the buy-in and get it out of the way. Also, as mentioned before, rebuys if you are below X involve a chip count by the host, which could be inconvenient at 3-4 tables.

You arent giving chips away, your stack size doesnt affect what hands you pickup, and if you're not playing with antes you dont need to be shoving wide unless you just want to gamble. If you want to mitigate the issue of super loose shoves from short stacks thats where the rebuy at or below starting stack comes in. Charging 2x the buyin isnt really the same at all.
 
f you want to mitigate the issue of super loose shoves from short stacks thats where the rebuy at or below starting stack comes in.
1st hand of the night. Pay the BB (or better yet, pay the SB). If you are in neither position, limp (provided there isn't a raise in front of you), and then fold.
REBUY!

Assuming a 200BB starting stack, you lose 1/200th of your stack, and immediately get 2x the chips of everyone at the table - except for the poor sap that won the first hand.

Everyone in their right mind should do this, because they then would have 399BB, against one player has just 207BB.

Sure, it mitigates super-loose shoves, but the 1 chip below starting stack in inherently broken. I've played at places where the rebuy was exactly starting stack. Nearly everyone sat down and took a rebuy. To refuse a 2x (well, 1.995x) starting stack in a tournament is -EV.
 
There are many variations of Rebuy/add-on situations ...
I've been doing the following ( social/home game):
20K Start, 20min lvls, (No blind lvl ever "doubles" except 25/50 to 50/100 (if I don't use 25/75) ):

* Rebuys allowed up to level 5 (100mins) if Either you are Busted, or you choose to surrender your current stack & rebuy, no # limit.
* A Small incentive add-on is "included" in the Price of the tournament, so, all players still playing at the end of Lvl 5 (Lvl 6 starting at 200/400), automatically are given a 5K to 7.5K chips add-on, (& no need to collect any money)..
I've found there are few if any rebuys needed most games, since 20K start stacks, & therefore no need to have a strict 1 or 2 rebuy "limit" , nor kick someone home early if they get unlucky & actually need to rebuy a 2nd or 3rd time ....
 
1st hand of the night. Pay the BB (or better yet, pay the SB). If you are in neither position, limp (provided there isn't a raise in front of you), and then fold.
REBUY!

Assuming a 200BB starting stack, you lose 1/200th of your stack, and immediately get 2x the chips of everyone at the table - except for the poor sap that won the first hand.

Everyone in their right mind should do this, because they then would have 399BB, against one player has just 207BB.

Sure, it mitigates super-loose shoves, but the 1 chip below starting stack in inherently broken. I've played at places where the rebuy was exactly starting stack. Nearly everyone sat down and took a rebuy. To refuse a 2x (well, 1.995x) starting stack in a tournament is -EV.

Except that person has paid double and his equity has only improved by one buyin, whereas all the other players have only had their equity reduced by one buyin. Also increasing the stack size over starting stack by a rebuy has a less effect on the game overall versus shoving and dumping chips, which you are trying to prevent.

Which has a worse effect on the game, dumping one BB at the start of a game or dumping your remaining stack at any point? Which is more likely to happen, someone dumping a small amount of chips at the very beginning to increase their equity a small amount or someone dumping a larger amount of chips at the end of rebuys in order to increase their equity from almost zero?

It is not -ev to dump your chips and rebuy when you lose a small stack to someone else but gain on everyone else in the tournament by rebuying. If you have to surrender your chips to rebuy then you might as well shove before that because there is always the chance you win and then don't need to rebuy. Shoving is obv more +ev then simply surrendering.
 
Anyways I have copied what the WSOP does on some of the more gambly events - half your stack in chips and half your stack in a Lammer that does not play until exchanged. The Lammers may be exchanged at any point before a hand starts, even before the start of the tournament. Any Lammers not used by the 1st break are then exchanged for chips.

For example this was used most recently in event #8 short deck hold'em $10k.
 
Short stack shoving (whether for re-buy/re-entry/doubleUp) is inherently part of tournament poker.

Unless you permit rebuys anytime below starting, then short stacks are disincentivised from shoving. Nothing's perfect but it does reduce the Allin fest as the rebuy period ends.

I mean, there are two ways to run a rebuy tournament. You can have a low buyin Allin shove fest style tourney like a $5 PokerStars rebuy tournament or you can use them as a means of guaranteeing a player a reasonable amount of play for their time commitment for coming out to your tournament. I think most people utilize rebuys the second way.
 
Unless you permit rebuys anytime below starting, then short stacks are disincentivised from shoving. Nothing's perfect but it does reduce the Allin fest as the rebuy period ends.

I mean, there are two ways to run a rebuy tournament. You can have a low buyin Allin shove fest style tourney like a $5 PokerStars rebuy tournament or you can use them as a means of guaranteeing a player a reasonable amount of play for their time commitment for coming out to your tournament. I think most people utilize rebuys the second way.

Luckily for our tournaments, allowing one last rebuy during the break hasn’t yet turned things into a all in fest immediately before the break. Everybody so far tamed themselves from doing so.

Might be my personal preference but I think the 50% mark or below rule plays well paired along with surrendering their current stack.

Overall I realized it can’t be universal for every tournament. All probably depends on number of players, regular fun home game or much larger more competitive tournament with much larger pot. Each calls for different rebuy rules.
 
1st hand of the night. Pay the BB (or better yet, pay the SB). If you are in neither position, limp (provided there isn't a raise in front of you), and then fold.
REBUY!

Assuming a 200BB starting stack, you lose 1/200th of your stack, and immediately get 2x the chips of everyone at the table - except for the poor sap that won the first hand.

Which is where the"at" part comes in. At or below starting stack means you can rebuy before the first hand is dealt. Moose nailed it as far as the EV part for the overall tournament.
 
Unless you permit rebuys anytime below starting, then short stacks are disincentivised from shoving. Nothing's perfect but it does reduce the Allin fest as the rebuy period ends.
After the rebuy, short stacks will still shove. Therefore, Paulo's comment is correct.

Might be my personal preference but I think the 50% mark or below rule plays well paired along with surrendering their current stack.
If you use the surrender the current stack rule, there is no need to set the 50% or below mark. There is often one player - that guy that always thinks he loses ever flip - that contemplates the surrender/rebuy. He then counts his chips and finds he is above starting stack. I will playfully joke with him that he is absolutely allowed to rebuy - it would be hugely -ev, but there is no reason to say no, as there is no inherent advantage once you surrender the chips.

Except that person has paid double and his equity has only improved by one buyin, whereas all the other players have only had their equity reduced by one buyin. Also increasing the stack size over starting stack by a rebuy has a less effect on the game overall versus shoving and dumping chips, which you are trying to prevent.
One buyin in a tournament is a small price to pay for a 200% chipstack advantage. Even if the opponent eventually rebuys himself, they won't have the same advantage that you had by rebuying to a maximum chiplead (unless he happens to also go down exactly 1 BB in the first level).

Which has a worse effect on the game, dumping one BB at the start of a game or dumping your remaining stack at any point? Which is more likely to happen, someone dumping a small amount of chips at the very beginning to increase their equity a small amount or someone dumping a larger amount of chips at the end of rebuys in order to increase their equity from almost zero?
Both are extremely likely to happen without the surrender rule. I cannot imagine not doing the single BB fold/rebuy. I've played in casinos that allowed a rebuy if you are at starting stack or less, and nearly every single player took it. A rebuy is inherently worth more early than it is late.

Neither will happen with the surrender rule.


It is not -ev to dump your chips and rebuy when you lose a small stack to someone else but gain on everyone else in the tournament by rebuying. If you have to surrender your chips to rebuy then you might as well shove before that because there is always the chance you win and then don't need to rebuy. Shoving is obv more +ev then simply surrendering.

I hear what you are saying. It has been discussed before, and some very good players agree with you. I will not disagree that surrendering is always -ev, but giving those chips to an opponent is even greater -ev.

I can say this: since I adopted the surrender rule (which I took from the WSOP, and has spread to the Horseshoe Tunica, Aria, the Venetian - and probably everywhere that good games are run) we no longer see blind shove fests at the end of the rebuy period. You can get aggressive with a short stack, or you can tighten up in hopes of catching a monster, knowing that you always have that reload. The point it, the individual player has options. Options are what makes poker great.
 
Which is where the"at" part comes in. At or below starting stack means you can rebuy before the first hand is dealt. Moose nailed it as far as the EV part for the overall tournament.
So at or below starting stack, you instantly rebuy - the second you sit down. The rebuy becomes less valuable every level afterwards. If your rules encourage a reasonable player to instantly rebuy, shouldn't you just raise the stakes - because everyone is rebuying. Well, maybe the player that can't afford to lose as much doesnt rebuy, but they are far less likely to win, since they start with literally 1/2 the chips as their wealthier brethren.
 
So at or below starting stack, you instantly rebuy - the second you sit down. The rebuy becomes less valuable every level afterwards. If your rules encourage a reasonable player to instantly rebuy, shouldn't you just raise the stakes - because everyone is rebuying. Well, maybe the player that can't afford to lose as much doesnt rebuy, but they are far less likely to win, since they start with literally 1/2 the chips as their wealthier brethren.

You are completely ignoring or missing that everytime you rebuy it lowers your ROI. Otherwise it would be a cheatcode or something. Those that dont rebuy get a shot at the pot for the smallest amount of money. Those who do get a higher chance of cashing but lower ROI. Its not as simple as you think.
 
You are completely ignoring or missing that everytime you rebuy it lowers your ROI. Otherwise it would be a cheatcode or something. Those that dont rebuy get a shot at the pot for the smallest amount of money. Those who do get a higher chance of cashing but lower ROI. Its not as simple as you think.

Play one time at Binions, Las Vegas.

Nearly every single person in the room rebuys as soon as they sit down. It's a greater investment, but playing with 1/2 a stack compared to your opponents isn't a 50% disadvantage, it's much greater. This is tournament poker. Stack protection is paramount. Having the greatest number of chips possible gives the greatest chance of finishing 1st, where the payout is the greatest. The single buy-in players are just fish in the barrel.

It really is that simple.

Looking at the results of a Venetian tournament:
$300 entry. T12,000 starting stack. 100-100 blinds to start. $8000 went to first.

If given the option to buy in for less, say $3, and you start with T120 in chips, would you? Technically, you are getting a better return, because you are obviously freerolling the rake. But you will lose. Yes, there is technically a chance you could win, but it would be a small miracle, because you are the shortest stack. If $3 is a losing proposition, and $300 is a equal proposition, at what point does that invert in between $3 and $300?

Answer: It doesn't. At no point will it be better to start with fewer chips.
 
Again you are completely ignoring the fact that to get the double stack you are paying double the money. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
 
1) Last chance to rebuy during first break or second break if any?

-> It will depends on the length of the rounds, I'll allow re-entries till 2 hours after the tournament starts.. which is end at the end of 1st break.

2) Add-on amount equivalent to how much and are you allowing the add-on plus rebuy combo to reset ones stack assuming they’re below a certain level?

->1 add-on per player available till end of 1 break: 1/2 starting stack for 1/2 buy in. Re-buy + add on allowed and add-on at buy in allowed too.

3) Allowing rebuys or not period and if yes, limit on how many to try to keep people on their game?

-> Unlimited Rebuy = + cash prize.


And if the concern is to "try to keep people playing" try cash games.
 
Again you are completely ignoring the fact that to get the double stack you are paying double the money. I guess we'll agree to disagree.
I am not ignoring it. Would you pay 1/100th price for 1/100th chipstack (example above)? I guarentee not. Then again, maybe you are that 1 in 50 runners that dont take the immediate reload.
 
All sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work out quite as well in practice.

Example: players with option to start with full stack or half-now/half-later tend to choose the latter, (including pros), even though the chips are 'more valuable' up front, and they are short-stacked to any players who choose to start with full stacks.

I have not observed any mathematical advantage of starting with twice as many chips, based on win/cash rates.
 

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