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LeShuffler: A Competitor For Shuffle Tech? (2 Viewers)

Francois

I am one of your backers and am optimistic about your product

Please feel free to keep this forum updated on your progress

There are early adopters here and if we are kept informed there is a wealth of knowledge here in reference to poker and related topics

Good luck and best wishes for success and hope you complete this product's goals

Once you have 10 posts I believe you can private message members if you have questions

All my Best Jeff :)
 
suited67 said:
Francois

I am one of your backers and am optimistic about your product

Please feel free to keep this forum updated on your progress

There are early adopters here and if we are kept informed there is a wealth of knowledge here in reference to poker and related topics

Good luck and best wishes for success and hope you complete this product's goals

Once you have 10 posts I believe you can private message members if you have questions

All my Best Jeff :)
Click to expand...
Thanks Jeff will do.
I believe the rules don't allow me to post links but I will let you know whenever there is an update on KS.
 
francoisLS said:
Hello Bikshu,
I am Francois, the creator of LeShuffler - I discovered your post by chance, thank you for your interest!
I just registered to the forum, so that I could answer any question or take any feedback you all might have about the machine.
Let me know your thoughts.
All the best,
Francois
Click to expand...

Hello Francois,

Welcome to PCF! As @suited67 had mentioned, this forum really is the perfect community for you to gather knowledge about the needs and wants of the poker community. I say that because I truly believe that a sizeable percentage of the people who are serious enough about their home poker games to justify spending $500.00-$1,000.00 on a card shuffling device are likely members here. Unfortunately, since I have never even used an electronic shuffler I am not in a very good position to offer you any constructive feedback myself, but I know that many other members will come along who can. Best of luck with LeShuffler and I certainly hope you blow your fundraising goals out of the water!
 
Bikshu said:
I wouldn't worry about the speed aspect very much. The fella in the video specifically states that the model he's doing the demo on is an "alpha" (i.e. basically just a proof of concept device and not even at the beta testing stage yet) which hasn't been optimized for speed at all. I think if everything else about it works as planned then tuning it up to finish the process within 1 minute is probably quite easy.

Instead, I would be much more concerned with the "dealing" aspect that this thing is supposedly able to do. Because if you watch their Kickstarter video at the link below at around the 35 second mark you can see that as the cards get spit out they can have a tendency to kind of go flying right passed each other. And while that may not be a big deal for certain card games, it certainly isn't ideal for poker where it's extremely important to keep straight exactly which dealt card belongs to which player. But, as with all things, time will tell so we'll find out what this thing is truly capable of if - and when - it gets released in spring 2025.

Click to expand...
Hi @Bikshu
Following up on your comments, just to let you know that a video showing the Texas Hold'Em feature has just been posted here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/francoissteiner/leshuffler/posts/4203185
 
francoisLS said:
Hi @Bikshu
Following up on your comments, just to let you know that a video showing the Texas Hold'Em feature has just been posted here:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/francoissteiner/leshuffler/posts/4203185
Click to expand...

Ahhh, that video was very interesting to watch. I didn't realize until watching it that a human dealer would still be responsible for pitching those cards out to their respective players. That actually alleviates most of my concern regarding how the machine spits out cards and the possibility of different players' cards getting comingled by accident.

But I noticed that the machine did away with dispensing any burn cards before the flop, turn, and river. On the one hand I can appreciate how a machine capable of doing true random shuffling and dealing might obviate the need for burn cards since the likelihood of cheating is minimized. But on the other hand I believe that burn cards are such a well established tradition within Texas Hold 'Em that any attempt to do away with them will almost assuredly bother most hardcore players. I know it would annoy me and I'm nowhere near a hardcore poker player. The problem is that those burn cards, despite perhaps being unnecessary if the human cheating element has been reduced, are literally a part of the game's rules. So to do away with them like that would require a paradigm shift in player mentality that I just don't think is going to happen anytime soon.

I would therefore suggest making a programming change in your Texas Hold 'Em dealing aspect to dispense 3 more cards that can be used as the burn cards. In other words, have it dispense 4 cards during the flop, 2 cards during the turn, and another 2 cards at the river. Or at least make this an additional programming option within the software running it. Like maybe have "Texas Hold 'Em With Burn Cards" and "Texas Hold 'Em No Burn Cards" as separate options when choosing the game. I think that would go a long way toward reducing any anxiety that might otherwise be created by not having any burn cards.

All that said, I still think that most people are not going to use the "dealing" function of LeShuffler altogether. I believe the vast majority would prefer having the device simply dispense all 52 randomized cards in a single stack at the gate, which they can then lift out and deal themselves. In fact, what I would likely do would be to place a "cut card" or "cover card" right at the gate before even turning the machine on. Then once I press the button and it does its thing I would end up with a perfectly shuffled deck sitting right on top of my cover card. That way I could safely remove the deck from the gate with absolutely zero chance of flashing the bottom card to anyone by mistake since my cover card is already on the bottom. Then I'd immediately take a second cover card and put it at the gate, load my second deck of cards into the top, and press the "go" button. This way the device could do its thing while I proceed to deal that original deck out. So by time we've played that first hand the second deck is already shuffled and sitting at the gate in a nice neat pile on top of the cover card ready to go.

But I admit that I could be totally wrong with my assumptions here. Maybe everyone will love the dealing aspect when it's all said and done. So it will be interesting to see what users say once the product goes live. Thank you for providing us with this video update and best of luck once again.
 
Last edited:
Didn't they say in the video it had the option for burn cards? Or maybe that it was going to get it. Could have sworn I heard that. I see how in some ways having it dispense the cards one at a time for dealing leads to a faster turnaround time on the next shuffle, since it only has to re-slot the cards used and then randomly dispense the cards for the next hand, rather than intaking and dispensing all the cards each time. But I also agree that a lot of poker players would just use it for the shuffling and prefer to deal the cards themselves as normal.
That being said given the design I'm not sure that the dealing function is really adding much in the way of cost to the unit, it's built to intake and dispense cards, it's just how many per button press at this point. So almost might as well have the option.
 
Bikshu said:
But on the other hand I believe that burn cards are such a well established tradition within Texas Hold 'Em that any attempt to do away with them will almost assuredly bother most hardcore players. I know it would annoy me and I'm nowhere near a hardcore poker player. The problem is that those burn cards, despite perhaps being unnecessary if the human cheating element has been reduced, are literally a part of the game's rules. So to do away with them like that would require a paradigm shift in player mentality that I just don't think is going to happen anytime soon.
Click to expand...

Clinging to the tradition of burn cards in this situation (where the top card is not visible) doesn’t make much sense.
And there are enough circus type games where cards aren’t burned, either out of necessity or practicality, that I’m pretty sure most players would adapt pretty comfortably.
You don’t see a burn card in online poker, do you? (Do you? Ha, I’m not sure.)
 
demonnic said:
Didn't they say in the video it had the option for burn cards? Or maybe that it was going to get it. Could have sworn I heard that. I see how in some ways having it dispense the cards one at a time for dealing leads to a faster turnaround time on the next shuffle, since it only has to re-slot the cards used and then randomly dispense the cards for the next hand, rather than intaking and dispensing all the cards each time. But I also agree that a lot of poker players would just use it for the shuffling and prefer to deal the cards themselves as normal.
That being said given the design I'm not sure that the dealing function is really adding much in the way of cost to the unit, it's built to intake and dispense cards, it's just how many per button press at this point. So almost might as well have the option.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right! In the description below the video he does mention that it will have the option to include - or not include - burn cards. I didn’t even notice that so that’s my bad! I totally retract my concern above.

But yeah I still maintain that, at least in my group of friends, we’d absolutely prefer to have it simply shuffle the cards and leave them in a nice stack at the gate for us to deal ourselves.
 
If you do insist on burn cards, just dump the entire deck out and treat it like you would a normal shuffler. I don't see the value of this, I'd much rather want a flush mounted device and sitting on the table is actually a showstopper to me.
 
upNdown said:
Clinging to the tradition of burn cards in this situation (where the top card is not visible) doesn’t make much sense.
And there are enough circus type games where cards aren’t burned, either out of necessity or practicality, that I’m pretty sure most players would adapt pretty comfortably.
You don’t see a burn card in online poker, do you? (Do you? Ha, I’m not sure.)
Click to expand...

I thought about the online poker aspect. My feeling there is that with online poker, at least in theory, the element of human cheating during the shuffle and deal have been entirely eliminated. Or you might even say that maybe the online system does burn a card but simply doesn’t show it on the table.

Whereas here we are talking about “the real world” where humans are still involved in pitching the cards and performing the flop, turn, and river. So personally, I’d just feel better seeing those burn cards on the table. But you might be right that I could be in the minority there. Plus you bring up a good point about all of the variations that don’t require burns.

But in the end it looks like Francois already thought of my concern and the final product will have options to include burn cards anyway. So this is certainly a well thought out product and props to him for that.
 
Last edited:
buzzmonkey said:
You don't like having to tilt the deck up out of the weird little catch pan thing and flashing the bottom card to folks?
Click to expand...
Hi @buzzmonkey
The front "catch pan" is actually mobile - in the prototype the link with the motor has not been implemented, but in a video published today you will see it actioned by hand (at 4:40) and we don't think it is an issue anymore (in the production model, the gate will half-open automatically, replicating what we do manually in the video).
Here is the update:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/francoissteiner/leshuffler/posts/4203185

Let us know your thoughts, we'd appreciate the feedback.
 
Bikshu said:
Hello Francois,

Welcome to PCF! As @suited67 had mentioned, this forum really is the perfect community for you to gather knowledge about the needs and wants of the poker community. I say that because I truly believe that a sizeable percentage of the people who are serious enough about their home poker games to justify spending $500.00-$1,000.00 on a card shuffling device are likely members here. Unfortunately, since I have never even used an electronic shuffler I am not in a very good position to offer you any constructive feedback myself, but I know that many other members will come along who can. Best of luck with LeShuffler and I certainly hope you blow your fundraising goals out of the water!
Click to expand...
Thanks Bikshu, 100% right, the feedback and insights I've received so far have been nothing short of amazing.
Deeply grateful to the community for that - and very impressed by everybody's knowledge, ideas and engagement. :tup:
 
I'm probably in the target market of this product. Have wanted a good shuffler at a reasonable price. I'll give my thoughts, as a home poker game host, hoping it is constructive.

1. I prefer flush mounting into the table or a side cart. If instead I place it on a table, I prefer a cube/rectangular shape that is lower. The shape/design (and colour, black please) and dealing feature are therefore not for me.

2. Prefer whole deck goes in and a whole deck comes out. Then I can use two decks, don't need to push buttons multiple times during a hand, no need to push buttons to change player number when Russ keeps going to the toilet, and can make correction deals (dead card) easily.

3. The rotary drum design is really clever way to achieve random. I can see benefits to this compared to a competitor that isn't quite random.
 
drdr said:
2. Prefer whole deck goes in and a whole deck comes out. Then I can use two decks, don't need to push buttons multiple times during a hand, no need to push buttons to change player number when Russ keeps going to the toilet, and can make correction deals (dead card) easily.
Click to expand...
Well said @drdr. For me to be interested in and a potential buyer of this product it needs to go this direction.
 
Bikshu said:
Ahhh, that video was very interesting to watch. I didn't realize until watching it that a human dealer would still be responsible for pitching those cards out to their respective players. That actually alleviates most of my concern regarding how the machine spits out cards and the possibility of different players' cards getting comingled by accident.

But I noticed that the machine did away with dispensing any burn cards before the flop, turn, and river. On the one hand I can appreciate how a machine capable of doing true random shuffling and dealing might obviate the need for burn cards since the likelihood of cheating is minimized. But on the other hand I believe that burn cards are such a well established tradition within Texas Hold 'Em that any attempt to do away with them will almost assuredly bother most hardcore players. I know it would annoy me and I'm nowhere near a hardcore poker player. The problem is that those burn cards, despite perhaps being unnecessary if the human cheating element has been reduced, are literally a part of the game's rules. So to do away with them like that would require a paradigm shift in player mentality that I just don't think is going to happen anytime soon.

I would therefore suggest making a programming change in your Texas Hold 'Em dealing aspect to dispense 3 more cards that can be used as the burn cards. In other words, have it dispense 4 cards during the flop, 2 cards during the turn, and another 2 cards at the river. Or at least make this an additional programming option within the software running it. Like maybe have "Texas Hold 'Em With Burn Cards" and "Texas Hold 'Em No Burn Cards" as separate options when choosing the game. I think that would go a long way toward reducing any anxiety that might otherwise be created by not having any burn cards.

All that said, I still think that most people are not going to use the "dealing" function of LeShuffler altogether. I believe the vast majority would prefer having the device simply dispense all 52 randomized cards in a single stack at the gate, which they can then lift out and deal themselves. In fact, what I would likely do would be to place a "cut card" or "cover card" right at the gate before even turning the machine on. Then once I press the button and it does its thing I would end up with a perfectly shuffled deck sitting right on top of my cover card. That way I could safely remove the deck from the gate with absolutely zero chance of flashing the bottom card to anyone by mistake since my cover card is already on the bottom. Then I'd immediately take a second cover card and put it at the gate, load my second deck of cards into the top, and press the "go" button. This way the device could do its thing while I proceed to deal that original deck out. So by time we've played that first hand the second deck is already shuffled and sitting at the gate in a nice neat pile on top of the cover card ready to go.

But I admit that I could be totally wrong with my assumptions here. Maybe everyone will love the dealing aspect when it's all said and done. So it will be interesting to see what users say once the product goes live. Thank you for providing us with this video update and best of luck once again.
Click to expand...
Hi @Bikshu, @upNdown and @demonnic,

Fascinating thread - I personally would not burn cards with LeShuffler as I don't think it is useful with a continuous shuffler, on the other hand it doesn't harm either so I wouldn't mind burning cards if I play with folks for whom it is important.
I will implement it in a way that the main button will enable you to select either "Flop" (or "Turn" or "River" depending on the stage of the game) or "burn card + Flop", (or "burn card + Turn" and "burn Card + River") and that will keep the memory of your last choice. So whatever your preference, you will have only to press the lower button to pursue and the upper button to "escape", without any programmation or choice of menu necessary.
I thought it the most transparent/intuitive way to provide both options with zero complexity.

Personally, I think the other option in using LeShuffler you describe - as a shuffler only, just getting the neatly stacked perfectly shuffled deck and dealing yourself, alternating between the blue and red deck so as to reduce dead time between games to zero - is perfectly legitimate and chosing between the 2 is (a bit like burn cards) a matter of style. Somebody mentioned in another thread that given the architecture of LeShuffler, if you have designed the shuffling feature, you might as well add the dealing as it doesn't add anything - and they are right.
In truth, I actually started designing LeShuffler as a shuffler-only, then had the idea of adding the dealing function late in the development, and as it did not entail additional costs or redesign, I thought "why not?".
Again, a matter of style but I would personally opt for the dealing feature (I find it fun and it is really quick because you reload only a few cards between game), especially for short-handed tables.

Finally, the idea of using a cover card at the bottom of the shuffled deck solves the risk of flashing the bottom card once and for all. I think that half-opening the gate before picking the deck (as done manually in the video - this will be automatic in the production model) would practically alleviate the risk already.

Thanks to all for your ingenuity and for taking the time - it means the world to me.
Any other feedback let me know, I will keep you updated anyway.
 
@francoisLS

So this is my opinion and not technical

I prefer the slots current set up
I like the adaptable burn card option
I like the random reload and dispensing
I like the catch pan to be able to manually or mechanical open/close
I like the effort to lower the noise level of unit
I like the deck can stay in unit and deal
Or come out as a deck to be manually dealt
I like the ability to have access for maintenance

I personally am not as tied to the idea of interest to flush mount unit

I hope there is portability and software upgrade options that maintain integrity and random dispensing

I do believe continued recommendations are a favorable plan to improve ingenuity and potential add-ons to improve the unit for a variety of uses

All my Best Jeff :)
 
suited67 said:
@francoisLS

So this is my opinion and not technical

I prefer the slots current set up
I like the adaptable burn card option
I like the random reload and dispensing
I like the catch pan to be able to manually or mechanical open/close
I like the effort to lower the noise level of unit
I like the deck can stay in unit and deal
Or come out as a deck to be manually dealt
I like the ability to have access for maintenance

I personally am not as tied to the idea of interest to flush mount unit

I hope there is portability and software upgrade options that maintain integrity and random dispensing

I do believe continued recommendations are a favorable plan to improve ingenuity and potential add-ons to improve the unit for a variety of uses

All my Best Jeff :)
Click to expand...
@suited67
Thanks for the feedback Jeff!
Yes it will be possible to update LeShuffler's firmware over time, you will need a computer and a USB C cable.
I will be releasing updates from time to time, to add features or preset games, integrate owner's feedback and correct bugs.
However hard I try l, I won't get it 100% right the first time, and even if I do, tastes may change and new games emerge.
As LeShuffler is built to last, I thought the possibility to update firmware had to be built-in from day 1.
All the best,
Francois
 
So, I'm pretty interested in this for my home game, I host about twice a week. I'm just trying to figure out, does this have an option to just spit out the shuffled deck so the dealer can deal? I would really only consider spending money if that was the case, other than that I feel like it would ultimately add time and confusion if you were forced to have the machine deal out the cards. Other than that, this looks perfect! Great blend of practicality and affordability and you definitely found the right platform to market on.
 
Yes, you can have it just spit out all the cards as a full deck. It still does it one at a time, but as stated it's able to produce a randomized deck in ~1.5 minutes and could do it faster once they tune for speed, which they've said is one of the final steps. It is not required to let it deal the game if you do not wish to.
 
francoisLS said:
@suited67
Thanks for the feedback Jeff!
Yes it will be possible to update LeShuffler's firmware over time, you will need a computer and a USB C cable.
I will be releasing updates from time to time, to add features or preset games, integrate owner's feedback and correct bugs.
However hard I try l, I won't get it 100% right the first time, and even if I do, tastes may change and new games emerge.
As LeShuffler is built to last, I thought the possibility to update firmware had to be built-in from day 1.
All the best,
Francois
Click to expand...
You already mentioned that portability isn't extremely high on the priority list. My Android car stereo takes firmware updates by having the user download the update to a flash drive, and when you plug the flash drive into the stereo the software automatically recognizes the update package and installs it. Might be easier to go that route instead of plugging in your shuffler to a PC
 
tabletalker7 said:
You already mentioned that portability isn't extremely high on the priority list. My Android car stereo takes firmware updates by having the user download the update to a flash drive, and when you plug the flash drive into the stereo the software automatically recognizes the update package and installs it. Might be easier to go that route instead of plugging in your shuffler to a PC
Click to expand...
Great idea, will check with the electronics team. Many thanks.
 
The discussion of full deck shuffle with 2 decks vs single deck continuous with dealing is an interesting one...

Is there perhaps a possibility to run two drums side by side in one case, with one motor and CPU, to get the best of both worlds for only a little more price?
 
If I load a spaded deck into the shuffler, then take it out and set it aside, load a second spaded deck into the shuffler, once complete can I spread the two decks and they will be in different sort orders?
 
Machine said:
If I load a spaded deck into the shuffler, then take it out and set it aside, load a second spaded deck into the shuffler, once complete can I spread the two decks and they will be in different sort orders?
Click to expand...
Hi @Machine
If you mean by "spaded deck" a deck sorted in order, as they come out of the box, the answer is yes, it will be a random different sequence every time.
Any other question let me know.
Best,
Francois
 
Dbxela said:
The discussion of full deck shuffle with 2 decks vs single deck continuous with dealing is an interesting one...

Is there perhaps a possibility to run two drums side by side in one case, with one motor and CPU, to get the best of both worlds for only a little more price?
Click to expand...
Hi @Dbxela
I am not sure how this would work.
Is the objective to shuffle and deal a 104 cards deck?
Best,
Francois
 
No, and it's probably not a great idea! I do like to get the 'no bad ideas' out though

I meant instead of having 2 devices with 2 decks to avoid the small reloading time, 2 devices could be basically stuck together and shared some component cost, because they don't actually need to run simultaneously.
 

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