Looking for feedback on my PLO play over the past few months (7 Viewers)

[Stufflymcstuff]

"And I'm not sure about their agreements between the states, but player pools are nothing like the golden age of online poker when Party, etc. were in their heyday and you had access to a worldwide player pool. Sometimes only people who reside in that particular state make up the player pool."


that's a good thing. the size of the player pool is not as important as the breakdown of whose playing. you might not be able to get huge volume in but the volume that you do get in will be high quality. i mean it depends on how slow the servers really are and i have no idea but i would imagine a state like nevada would have a reasonable amount of tables going on any given evening.

international servers are lousy because there's an enormous number of people from eastern europe and other impoverished countries where wages (and live poker options) are so bad that aspiring pros are willing to dilute the player pool until potential hourlies are rock bottom. they also have far, far fewer people who will gamble recreationally for large amounts so the top end is dead as shit. pokerstars global server often has only a single 5/10nl hold em game going. right now im looking at PLO and there's only 1 table higher than 1/2 plo being run. and it's a safe bet that every single 6max table running all the way down to $50nl has 5 grinders and 1 recreational player.

and when i say grinder i don't mean the caliber of grinder you find in 5/5plo live. these are people who have all the technical aspects refined to a tee at 1/2nl/plo and above. they almost all have preset sizings, and choose sizings with different parts of their range that are solver approved in almost all spots. not because they DONT play exploitatively ever, but because you absolutely have to play a solver centric style against other regs or you'll get eaten alive. it's only when you're heads up with the table mark that you start to deviate.

 

[khp]

As far as preflop goes my raising range is virtually non-existent. Typically only with strong premium holdings IF and ONLY if I can get my entire stack in preflop or create a low enough SPR that I'm never folding on the flop.

I’m not a PLO player and wanted to ask you about this. I understand doing this to pot control and play mostly post flop, where you have a larger edge, but is this strategy considered optimal?

 

[Rhodeman77]

I’m not a PLO player and wanted to ask you about this. I understand doing this to pot control and play mostly post flop, where you have a larger edge, but is this strategy considered optimal?

In my opinion, absolutely not. Always limping or calling is not smart. There is definitely value in opening hands and not with just AAxx hands.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I’m not a PLO player and wanted to ask you about this. I understand doing this to pot control and play mostly post flop, where you have a larger edge, but is this strategy considered optimal?

Other pros in the game tend to take a different approach, where they raise preflop in position and try to narrow down the field to one or two players. It allows them to win pots either with weaker hands (i.e. they don't have to show down the nuts) or to use their position to take pots away from players based on board textures.

It's certainly a strategy that works for them. For me, since PLO is so heavily flop dependent on changing the equities of players hands, I prefer to keep pots small and manageable so I can continue post-flop when warranted.

The weaker and more passive players are more likely to come along and pay off with their fourth highest flush postflop if you don't push them out preflop. It's a strategy I prefer, but there are more aggressive strategies that other players prefer that work well for them.

I just find that these games tend to have at least one loose cannon looking to pop-off and get stacks in pre with wide ranges. When you do get stacks in preflop, since equities are much closer, your opponent isn't making as big of a mistake against you. I prefer my opponents to make as large a mistake as possible, which is why I try to pot control preflop usually.

In my opinion, absolutely not. Always limping or calling is not smart. There is definitely value in opening hands and not with just AAxx hands.

I will raise with more than just AAxx hands. If I feel I can isolate a player with dead money in the pot and I have a hand like I'll do it, as I'd prefer to have that hand up against one player rather than multiple where hitting my flush is more likely to not be good.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I’m not a PLO player and wanted to ask you about this. I understand doing this to pot control and play mostly post flop, where you have a larger edge, but is this strategy considered optimal?

a 10% rake impacts optimal play in a really big way. it's hard to quantify but there's an app called preflopper that i betatested that let's you tinker with rake changes on optimal open ranges, and even at 5% cap 1.5bb (basically what you pay at 1/2nl online) it has a very noticeable impact. and 10% is even more than you'd think proportionally. for the same reason that 20% (cap 2 blinds, let's say) would make basically every single hand unplayable in plo unless the people you're playing against barely understood the rules.

 

[Anthony Martino]

a 10% rake impacts optimal play in a really big way. it's hard to quantify but there's an app called preflopper that i betatested that let's you tinker with rake changes on optimal open ranges, and even at 5% cap 1.5bb (basically what you pay at 1/2nl online) it has a very noticeable impact. and 10% is even more than you'd think proportionally. for the same reason that 20% (cap 2 blinds, let's say) would make basically every single hand unplayable in plo unless the people you're playing against barely understood the rules.

I'm not quite sure why you're responding about rake to a question about controlling the pot size preflop?

As far as the rake in my room goes, it's max $5 plus a $2 jackpot drop in the 2/2 PLO with a $5 rock (buyins are $200-1k). The 5/5 with a $10 rock and 10/10 with a $25 rock (buyins are 500-2500 and 1K-5k) feature an $8/half hour time rake charge (or $10/half hour if you're in the private 2 table glass room)

The time rake is certainly better for your bottom line overall since less money is being taken off the table typically, plus the higher stakes and higher pot sizes mean the rake in proportion to your winnings is lower. But when you're losing or card dead for four hours, the pot rake feels a lot nicer than paying $16-20/hr with nothing to show for it (i.e. at least in the pot rake game if you're losing, it's the winners who are paying all the rake from the pots they win, so there's some silver lining)

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

To expand,

The benefit you get from raising/3betting preflop is much smaller than hold em because your equity edge is much smaller. In Omaha your smaller equity edge is much more easily destroyed by rake.

Against a perfect pool of players, yes, you’d be want to squeeze every small edge you can because they won’t be making those big mistakes postflop so there’s no benefit in having deep stacks on later streets. Against players who are stacking off way too light in deep stack situations (but likely making much smaller mistakes in shallow stack situations since stacking off is much more often correct) you don’t want to push small equity edges pre in a high rake environment

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I'm not quite sure why you're responding about rake to a question about controlling the pot size preflop?

As far as the rake in my room goes, it's max $5 plus a $2 jackpot drop in the 2/2 PLO with a $5 rock (buyins are $200-1k). The 5/5 with a $10 rock and 10/10 with a $25 rock (buyins are 500-2500 and 1K-5k) feature an $8/half hour time rake charge (or $10/half hour if you're in the private 2 table glass room)

The time rake is certainly better for your bottom line overall since less money is being taken off the table typically, plus the higher stakes and higher pot sizes mean the rake in proportion to your winnings is lower. But when you're losing or card dead for four hours, the pot rake feels a lot nicer than paying $16-20/hr with nothing to show for it (i.e. at least in the pot rake game if you're losing, it's the winners who are paying all the rake from the pots they win, so there's some silver lining)

This is better than many I’ve played at. Many casinos have max 15$, and Ive seen underground’s with 10% cap 50. If every pot is over 200$ At your card room which it sounds like it might be, it’s obviously irrelevant whether it’s 10% or 5%.

 

[Anthony Martino]

This is better than many I’ve played at. Many casinos have max 15$, and Ive seen underground’s with 10% cap 50. If every pot is over 200$ At your card room which it sounds like it might be, it’s obviously irrelevant whether it’s 10% or 5%.

Yes, this isn't NL Hold Em where everyone is playing tight, PLO is an action game and there are plenty of four-figure pots to contest.

 

[BukNaked36]

PLO player listening to Hold'em player bad beat stories

I can't believe it took you this long to make this thread. You should consider yourself lucky.

 

[Goldfish]

PLO player listening to Hold'em player bad beat stories

I can't believe it took you this long to make this thread. You should consider yourself lucky.

This is really funny….. I actually laughed out loud and showed the wife…… she didn’t understand or care by the way.

I agree with @BukNaked36 - plo Is a very tough game to make money consistently. And u have to have the right mental state to let bad beats slide off.

The saying goes - playing poker professionally is a really tough way to earn an easy living. The swings can be incredibly frustrating and will happen even though you are playing well. i feel like techinically you are a much better player than I will ever be, so I am not going to comment on the way u play hands. the only observation I will make is that it sounds like you may not be going to these games with very many bullets in ur preverbal gun. So if u get bad beated once or twice u pick up and go. in the games I play in reloading 4,5,6 times is very common. Reloading More than that is not uncommon. The point is if ur not comfortable reloading, or willing to reload, numerous times you are not giving ur self enough time to experience the upside of even a single session. whatever game ur sitting in I think u need to be prepared to rebuy multiple times (assuming the game is good). Why would u ever want to walk away from a game with “droolers” as u call them? I have some of my biggest winning nights after rebuying multiple times. Bad beats are gonna happen a lot in plo, that’s just the game. But if u stay long enough usually u will be on the right side of some hands eventually or if ur patient enough the donkeys will stick it in bad and miss. Just my thought.

 

[Anthony Martino]

This is really funny….. I actually laughed out loud and showed the wife…… she didn’t understand or care by the way.

I agree with @BukNaked36 - plo Is a very tough game to make money consistently. And u have to have the right mental state to let bad beats slide off.

The saying goes - playing poker professionally is a really tough way to earn an easy living. The swings can be incredibly frustrating and will happen even though you are playing well. i feel like techinically you are a much better player than I will ever be, so I am not going to comment on the way u play hands. the only observation I will make is that it sounds like you may not be going to these games with very many bullets in ur preverbal gun. So if u get bad beated once or twice u pick up and go. in the games I play in reloading 4,5,6 times is very common. Reloading More than that is not uncommon. The point is if ur not comfortable reloading, or willing to reload, numerous times you are not giving ur self enough time to experience the upside of even a single session. whatever game ur sitting in I think u need to be prepared to rebuy multiple times (assuming the game is good). Why would u ever want to walk away from a game with “droolers” as u call them? I have some of my biggest winning nights after rebuying multiple times. Bad beats are gonna happen a lot in plo, that’s just the game. But if u stay long enough usually u will be on the right side of some hands eventually or if ur patient enough the donkeys will stick it in bad and miss. Just my thought.

It varies, sometimes I will reload multiple times, other times I won't.

I have gone to the felt in some sessions in the past (i.e. hit my daily loss limit) and called it quits, but I don't feel the need to always empty the entire clip, I will leave taking a loss without having to lose every last dollar I brought

There are some days where you just aren't winning no matter how well you play. If that is the case I am willing to accept defeat rather than risk tilt creeping in, causing me to muck something up and go into a spiral where the reason I'm losing becomes my trying to force the action rather than a function of variance

Generally I'm not reloading more than 4 times, but perhaps you are correct and I should stick it out provided the game is good. Thank you for the insight

 

[Hornet]

Seems like the point of this thread is to convey that you’ve been running bad even though you are playing well. That might be true, but if you are really looking for ways to improve, I would suggest working with someone whose game you really respect. This thread obviously isn’t going to do it.

Just my two cents for what it’s worth … point out some hands where you believe your play is questionable or perhaps (gasp!) you even misplayed the hand. Analyze them specifically with your chosen “coach.” Following your thread, I get the sense that you think you play almost every hand optimally. That’s extremely hard to do, even for the best PLO players.

 

[Kain8]

 

[Anthony Martino]

Seems like the point of this thread is to convey that you’ve been running bad even though you are playing well. That might be true, but if you are really looking for ways to improve, I would suggest working with someone whose game you really respect. This thread obviously isn’t going to do it.

Just my two cents for what it’s worth … point out some hands where you believe your play is questionable or perhaps (gasp!) you even misplayed the hand. Analyze them specifically with your chosen “coach.” Following your thread, I get the sense that you think you play almost every hand optimally. That’s extremely hard to do, even for the best PLO players.

I know I don't play every hand perfectly.

I "think" I've been running bad, but after 2.5 months of it I wanted to get feedback because my perception could be skewed and someone may see something I'm missing

I have shared hands that I've misplayed in the thread, although they likely get drowned out by my other posts where I feel

 

[Senzrock]

I had two days in a row where guys put it in with shitty Kings in PLO against my limp-repot with Aces and found their Kings straight away on the flop.

I had a guy yesterday call his stack off on a 23J flop with two hearts when he had something like A256 with just the naked Ace of hearts.

When I read hand histories like these...

lost an $8500 pot (half the pot being my money) when I got it all-in on the turn as a 78% favorite and the guy decided to gamble and only ran once and got there on me.

Then immediately the next hand I buyin for 1K and get it in against the same maniac where I hold AAT9 suited and he decides to go ham with J875 I think one suit as well? And he wins that one also.

And these...

First thought: Yes, you are the victim of some serious run bad. I know you know this, and you have stated it clearly here already, but still good to just really try to internalize that you are going through a patch of variance that won't last forever and you will come out on the other side from.

Second thought: Poker can be a brutal game mentally. After barely losing a session June-August (how is that even possible lol), I began running pretty badly in October and November. This culminated recently by playing extremely poorly due to being on extended tilt over a long session. Do you ever take time to work on your mental game? You have probably heard about Elliot Roe who does content for Run It Once and several of the top pros. He will be too expensive to hire but RIO is doing a free promo up until Thursday I believe where a lot of his content is free on their site. Also, their rates are pretty affordable if you want to dive in more seriously on the mental game front.

I like to keep in mind various forms of tilt - being tilted from losing hands (being "unlucky"), being tilted from entitlement ("I really should be beating this game, these players are terrible"), being on broader life tilt (hard to play poker sometimes when other things in life might not be going as well, this is a double negative when you are playing poker as your source of income of course), and finally - winner's tilt. I know after I had a really successful summer, I think I came into the fall feeling a bit more entitled than I did in the past and in retrospect this might have led to some winner's tilt, not playing my A game because I expected it to come to me, making looser calls because I can "always outplay them post flop" etc. Perhaps a good time to take a (at least short) break and maybe take a look at some of the mental game/performance coaching stuff from Elliot and other coaches.

Good luck, you're going to be just fine on the other side of this.

 

[grebe]

Hey Anthony,

I don't know you, you don't know me. So there is no reason for me to sugar coat it or anything. Here are my thoughts as a complete outsider that just enjoys following along with your story:

-you are looking for technical help on your PLO hands played on a site of poker chip enthusiasts. Surely, there is a better place to look for actual help on hand analysis. You have to be the most experienced PLO player here. TBH, this seems like a chance for you to justify yourself rather than actually get help.

-From listening to podcasts and studying from pros, I am led to believe that many successful pros use downswings to study more and make sure their bad variance is actually just variance and not new leaks in their games. I would ask myself what I am doing to better my game during this downswing. (hint: asking worse players than yourself for thoughts does not count).

-If you are not in a community of professional PLO players that study together and compare hand analyses, I would recommend finding one....stat.

-You should also probably have a coach. In fact, many staking arrangements come with a coach. If you don't have this in your staking, you are probably lacking in comparison to other pros.

Hey man, I am pulling for you. Like I said, just my observations from a rec player that likes to live vicariously thru you, because there is NO FUCKING WAY I would ever try it myself! Here's to hoping the worm turns in your favor soon....

grebe

 

[Senzrock]

Hey Anthony,

I don't know you, you don't know me. So there is no reason for me to sugar coat it or anything. Here are my thoughts as a complete outsider that just enjoys following along with your story:

-you are looking for technical help on your PLO hands played on a site of poker chip enthusiasts. Surely, there is a better place to look for actual help on hand analysis. You have to be the most experienced PLO player here. TBH, this seems like a chance for you to justify yourself rather than actually get help.

-From listening to podcasts and studying from pros, I am led to believe that many successful pros use downswings to study more and make sure their bad variance is actually just variance and not new leaks in their games. I would ask myself what I am doing to better my game during this downswing. (hint: asking worse players than yourself for thoughts does not count).

-If you are not in a community of professional PLO players that study together and compare hand analyses, I would recommend finding one....stat.

-You should also probably have a coach. In fact, many staking arrangements come with a coach. If you don't have this in your staking, you are probably lacking in comparison to other pros.

Hey man, I am pulling for you. Like I said, just my observations from a rec player that likes to live vicariously thru you, because there is NO FUCKING WAY I would ever try it myself! Here's to hoping the worm turns in your favor soon....

grebe

All very good advice (although I appreciate Anthony sharing all of this with the PCF community of course - I think it does serve a purpose given that he has posted extensively here about his journey as a pro).

 

[buzzmonkey]

I'm no expert by far. I'm definitely in the category of rec player. From that perspective I suspect taking notes of as many hands you're involved in as possible and reviewing those notes with another successful player(s) if you're not already doing so could be helpful. I also wonder if any of these coaching services online are worth the investment or if they're all cash grabs.

 

[timinater]

I think there could be a few things worth looking into @Anthony Martino. I'm going to highlight what stood out to me.

Coaching: As others have mentioned we're mostly PLO amateurs around here, definitely hire a coach who can review hands, steer you towards helpful resources and give you their unvarnished assessment of your play.

Mindset:

droolers

I really hate this characterization of your opponents and I notice it often in your posts. If in your head you are belittling and assuming your opponents are dumb button mashers it puts you in a headspace (as @Senzrock mentioned) of feeling entitled to beat these players out in spots. This leads to tilt when the cards don't come out in your favour.

They might indeed be dumb drooling button mashing fish, but you need to have a bit more respect for them, and their ability to play poker.

Results Oriented Thinking: I know this is easier said than done, especially in a downswing. I took a look at your OP, it was 820 words. When I removed the bad beat stories and coolers, your post is 332 words. The bulk of this post was bitching about results. Are you spending a similar of amount of time/bandwidth thinking about the runouts too?

I feel frustrated I guess when I look at hands that I feel were the correct folds but then I see that I would've won a massive fucking pot

This is toxic thinking about poker hands. Again, it's easier said than done but you need to disassociate from the results, especially in hands you folded. If you think it's the right fold, great! If that runout gives you pause, well, time to review that hand top to bottom/front to back and likely come to the same conclusion that it was a good fold.

 

[JMC9389]

There's nothing that I can add that already hasn't been said, so I'll just quickly summarize what my thoughts would have been.

-Look into some coaching. Takes notes on the hands that you felt you were in a tough spot or were completely bewildered at showdown as to what your opponent showed. Identify your leaks and work on patching them.

-If you feel like you're making bad reads or feel yourself going on tilt, there's no shame in packing it in early and trying another day. When one gets behind, often times there's an increased likelihood that there are deviations from the game plan and there's more chasing of marginal hands to get unstuck. I'm mostly a winning player among my regular crew of guys, but there are one or two sessions in any given year where I either catch myself playing really poorly or not optimally, and I cut myself off and not chase my losses and deal for the rest of the night.

-Until you're out from your makeup with your investors, I'd pause any staking arrangements and play at the lower stakes out of your own pocket. I wouldn't dig a deeper hole by playing higher. It's not as much variance playing lower, but I'd focus on fundamentals at the lower stakes and making sure you plug your leaks before playing at the higher tables again.

Good luck Anthony!

 

[JustinInMN]

I started this in Sep 2019 as my sole source of income. The partial staking arrangement started this past August (which was my best month ever, I think my biggest losing session was around $400, and I mostly won most sessions, just had an absolute killer month). But then in September I had my biggest loss overall, roughly half of the monthly loss being attributed to one specific day where I played the 10/10/25 game and lost an $8500 pot (half the pot being my money) when I got it all-in on the turn as a 78% favorite and the guy decided to gamble and only ran once and got there on me.

I've never been a full time pro, but in the years before I was married I was certainly a part time pro playing 20-25 hours a week aside from my 40 hour a week job. I've been staked during that period, I've been non-staked during that period. Not staked is way better, even if it limits how high I can play. I think being in makeup is limiting your enjoyment of the game and possibly changing the motivation equation.

One of the signs your are playing too high is that too many single pots are making a difference to you.

Play less hands. Play the hands you do play aggressively. Hopefully less multi-way action and more heads up.

I think this is good advice when you are running bad. At least play to lower your variance until the mind gets right again. I think you have identified some frustration, whether or not it is your fault, may be affecting you and that is on you to control. Patrick Mahomes kind of discovered some version of this last night. Made all his easy throws instead of forcing too many long ones.

If your opposition is bad, there is value in just playing the simplest game you can that you know turns a profit. Rebuild from there.

 

[JustinInMN]

Also I am going to add. I don't think online is the answer either. Yes it may be harder to "mark" a deck online, but betting collusion is so easy online and the less reputable the operator, the less they are actually going to do about it.

Live games are still the most secure games. (Even given things I know you have encountered, @Anthony Martino ) That's why everyone flocked back once things started opening again.

 

[buzzmonkey]

Have you ever considered applying for Cuban citizenship?

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

Also I am going to add. I don't think online is the answer either. Yes it may be harder to "mark" a deck online, but betting collusion is so easy online and the less reputable the operator, the less they are actually going to do about it.

Live games are still the most secure games. (Even given things I know you have encountered, @Anthony Martino ) That's why everyone flocked back once things started opening again.

It’s not so clear cut. With disreputable sites I have no idea and I would agree not worth the risk on most PokerBros groups. For big respected sites id argue collusion is much more difficult (varies from site to site) - they have the ability to and sometimes reveal details of data sweeps that reveal stuff that no b&m cardroom would have access to much less have the ability to sift through.

Live collision isn’t uncommon. It’s just not generally enough to make games unplayable because people suck so bad.

Two live colluding players could easily signal a few simple details and experience massive mutual benefits in multi-way pots and no one would be able to tell.

 

[ekricket]

Have you ever considered applying for Cuban citizenship?

Get some new tires for your car too

 

[LeLe]

Tough luck on your recent downswing, I not profile or played enough PLO to make any good feedback.

All the best on toughing it through the downswing soon

 

[JustinInMN]

For big respected sites id argue collusion is much more difficult (varies from site to site) - they have the ability to and sometimes reveal details of data sweeps that reveal stuff that no b&m cardroom would have access to much less have the ability to sift through.

True, but I think @Anthony Martino already stated the major online sites are not available in his jurisdiction.

 

[Mike mac]

i think the pain of running bad is compounded with the fact that you are playing with stake money and that sits in your head and digs a hole in your brain!
this was the way a loss sat with me when i was a stake player in the past. worse if you know the person that stakes you as a friend. when you run great- great !! that's the way your suppose to run, but when you shi# the bed the pain is multiplied out of guilt and expectations that failed to manifest.

i say get rid of the stake and play for your self and enjoy wins more and have less guilt when you lose ( the way poker should be )

for the record i follow and enjoy your thread!

as always good luck to you @Anthony Martino

 

[Rhodeman77]

@Anthony Martino Black Friday sale for PLO courses at Run it Once. Seems like a cheap investment compared to the losses you’ve been sustaining.


https://www.runitonce.com/black-fri...Gnt_MwGEjOMhmeprgKrI_UdgutJbKzAC1wBuwTQdmuZxo