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Major “Poker Cheating Scandal” - Not Mike Postle??? (2 Viewers)

Frogzilla said:
Looks like jungle
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What new info came to light? If people can update this thread that would be super appreciated! I don't follow poker pros and all that as much as I used to.

If it is true that it was jungleman then that is too bad.

I don't know if the cheating goes back to online days or what but....Gus Hansen lost like 20M and suspected foul play.
 
Jungle has admitted to ghosting in the past and he's super strange, so I wouldn't be surprised if it is actually him. So far, 2+2 seems to think it's him.
 
I tried to read through the hundreds of posts on 2+2... best I can gather is there was some ghosting activity going on. Anyone else got anything?
 
chkmte said:
I tried to read through the hundreds of posts on 2+2... best I can gather is there was some ghosting activity going on. Anyone else got anything?
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Allegedly, Perkins, Bilzerian, and a group of other millionaires had a private invite only game (I think $500-$1000 blind stakes) that they have been playing on some poker app during quarantine (which requires the participants to be on webcam while playing and I think they just settle up the money afterwards). One of the "friends" decided to get a pro to ghost his account for him (Bilzerian later went to twitter and said it was Dan "Jungleman" Cates). The "friend" pretended to be playing while on webcam. Perkins found all this out from Jason Koon who says he was approached to do the ghosting but refused. Perkins then spoke to Cates who apologized and I believe agreed to pay him back (pay him off?) to not release his name publicly which Perkins agreed to. Bilzerian did it anyway. Cates responded on twitter with a weak excuse that Bilzerian is "mistaken" but refused to deny the accusation and stated something like he can't say anything more due to legal reasons.

If it is actually Cates who did it, it is pretty funny he just posted a blog post a couple weeks ago about how honest and how much integrity he has and can't help but having.
 
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trigs said:
Allegedly, Perkins, Bilzerian, and a group of other millionaires had a private invite only game (I think $500-$1000 blind stakes) that they have been playing on some poker app during quarantine (which requires the participants to be on webcam while playing and I think they just settle up the money afterwards). One of the "friends" decided to get a pro to ghost his account for him (Bilzerian later went to twitter and said it was Dan "Jungleman" Cates). The "friend" pretended to be playing while on webcam. Perkins found all this out from Jason Koon who says he was approached to do the ghosting but refused. Perkins then spoke to Cates who apologized and I believe agreed to pay him back (pay him off?) to not release his name publicly which Perkins agreed to. Bilzerian did it anyway. Cates responded on twitter with a weak excuse that Bilzerian is "mistaken" but refused to deny the accusation and stated something like he can't say anything more due to legal reasons.

If it is actually Cates who did it, it is pretty funny he just posted a blog post a couple weeks ago about how honest and how much integrity he has and can't help but having.
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This makes a lot of sense. All the really good pros like Koon and Cates don't get invited to the high stakes business men games because they are sharks. Once you are at Koon/Cates level of play it is more about access to the big juicy games vs. trying to get good at the game or run good. They already are at the top of the food chain which creates problems in finding action.

I tend to trust Blizerian and Perkins more than other poker players since they are wealthy outside of poker and really don't need the game. These guys just play as a pastime and their reputation means more than winning or losing at a game.

I hope more confirmed information comes to light.
 
So essentially, Jungleman was playing via a proxy (allegedly). I’m not sure this makes much sense because now you’re chopping up any winnings, and if successful, you have two new issues... 1.) other players are going to get suspicious and/or 2.) that game will dry up.

The whole premise of ghosting seems shortsighted, at least under these conditions.
 
chkmte said:
So essentially, Jungleman was playing via a proxy (allegedly). I’m not sure this makes much sense because now you’re chopping up any winnings, and if successful, you have two new issues... 1.) other players are going to get suspicious and/or 2.) that game will dry up.

The whole premise of ghosting seems shortsighted, at least under these conditions.
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Yup. Definitely pretty stupid and shortsighted of him.
 
who really cares about this? its no where near that cheater mike postel. this just makes me hate bill perkins more.... he and doug polk are just the worst .... also JRB ... cant stand either of those guys.... this isn't even a blip on my radar. drama queen perkins.
 
Mike mac said:
who really cares about this? its no where near that cheater mike postel. this just makes me hate bill perkins more.... he and doug polk are just the worst .... also JRB ... cant stand either of those guys.... this isn't even a blip on my radar. drama queen perkins.
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Actually, a lot of people do because it give Congress yet another reason to never legalize online poker.
 
chkmte said:
The whole premise of ghosting seems shortsighted, at least under these conditions.
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Depends on the stakes. These guys play huge. If someone teamed up with Cates to hit and run the game for 500k that is not bad for a days work even if split 2 ways.
 
Lemonzest said:
Depends on the stakes. These guys play huge. If someone teamed up with Cates to hit and run the game for 500k that is not bad for a days work even if split 2 ways.
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Not sure burning your integrity to the ground for $250k would be worth it though. Especially given their talent and long term potential.
 
This sort of thing def happens online. But in very large player pools at the lower stakes, it goes mostly unnoticed. Though in the abstract, playing on another player's account to gain an advantage is cheating IMO (I don't think this should really even be an opinion).

Imagine a known fish/whale sitting down in your live game being told what to do by someone of clearly superior skill via earpiece and eyeglass camera.

At the higher stakes where the player pools are very small, almost everyone knows each other, and integrity counts for a lot, this is a pretty big deal. It's not Mike Postle levels of craziness, but in a small circle of people where reputation can mean everything, this is pretty bad.

You can say this comes with the territory of playing online. That's true. But that doesn't make it any less of a cheat. Just one where it's hard to get caught in large player pools.
 
Legend5555 said:
This sort of thing def happens online. But in very large player pools at the lower stakes, it goes mostly unnoticed. Though in the abstract, playing on another player's account to gain an advantage is cheating IMO (I don't think this should really even be an opinion).

Imagine a known fish/whale sitting down in your live game being told what to do by someone of clearly superior skill via earpiece and eyeglass camera.

At the higher stakes where the player pools are very small, almost everyone knows each other, and integrity counts for a lot, this is a pretty big deal. It's not Mike Postle levels of craziness, but in a small circle of people where reputation can mean everything, this is pretty bad.

You can say this comes with the territory of playing online. That's true. But that doesn't make it any less of a cheat. Just one where it's hard to get caught in large player pools.
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IMO the issue is how you play against specific people that you are familiar with. It matters less online versus an anonymous field. If I am playing against someone who I know well then plays are specific to that person and their tendencies. It isn't about stakes but about how well the players know each other.

If Cates jumped on someones poker stars account and started playing against the random field that is less bad that this scenario where presumably the players knew each other and their tendencies well.

For example, if I know my friend Bill will almost always fold to a big turn bet then it will be problematic when Cates impersonating Bill calls my bet. That type of scenario is really the problem.
 
Lemonzest said:
IMO the issue is how you play against specific people that you are familiar with. It matters less online versus an anonymous field. If I am playing against someone who I know well then plays are specific to that person and their tendencies. It isn't about stakes but about how well the players know each other.

If Cates jumped on someones poker stars account and started playing against the random field that is less bad that this scenario where presumably the players knew each other and their tendencies well.

For example, if I know my friend Bill will almost always fold to a big turn bet then it will be problematic when Cates impersonating Bill calls my bet. That type of scenario is really the problem.
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That was exactly my point. Misrepresenting yourself when you are well known like this in a small circle is much more cheating than some random that could be different people at different times that you play with very sporadically and don't know well in a larger player pool.
 
I understand that ghosting is a regular occurrence online and especially in the high stakes community (at least, that's the impression I get from a bunch of high stakes pros that have commented on this happening regularly and/or admitting they've done it in the past). However, just because people do it doesn't mean it's okay or it's not cheating. I understand that if you are one of the top rated players in the world it can be hard for you to get in a good game, but have some integrity ffs.

Not to mention "cheaters gunna cheat" so I think it's pretty naive of many people to look past ghosting as "something that a lot of players do in high stakes" and not consider that such a person won't look to other ways of cheating as well. Do you really think that a guy who's willing to ghost because "it's cheating but not really a big deal cheating" will just stop there because they are moral and know other cheating is worse? Yeah right.
 
You get an interesting, maybe disheartening, perspective on 2+2. Safe to say the level of poker players there skews higher, and the predominant view seems to be that poker is full of cheaters, high stakes poker is especially full of cheaters, no big deal.
 
upNdown said:
You get an interesting, maybe disheartening, perspective on 2+2. Safe to say the level of poker players there skews higher, and the predominant view seems to be that poker is full of cheaters, high stakes poker is especially full of cheaters, no big deal.
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The mainstream poker world is scummy and that is all there is to it. Playing with friends that you trust and enjoy their company is better than the WSOP.
 
This sort of thing is always going to happen with these private, invite only games. I hate the idea of private games in public domains like casinos or online. The cool thing about poker was always that if you had the cash and a seat was open, you can sit down in any game you choose. If people get shut out of games because it is invite only they will find another way in one way or another.
 
trigs said:
Not to mention "cheaters gunna cheat" so I think it's pretty naive of many people to look past ghosting as "something that a lot of players do in high stakes" and not consider that such a person won't look to other ways of cheating as well. Do you really think that a guy who's willing to ghost because "it's cheating but not really a big deal cheating" will just stop there because they are moral and know other cheating is worse? Yeah right.
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Phil Ivey and his baccarat shenanigans quickly comes to mind....

Might not have been blatant cheating, but it was certainly trying to get an edge (not available to the masses) by gaming the system.
 
I learned my lesson twenty years ago to stop playing online poker. It never felt right, even when I come out ahead. Too many shenanigans.
 
BGinGA said:
Phil Ivey and his baccarat shenanigans quickly comes to mind....

Might not have been blatant cheating, but it was certainly trying to get an edge (not available to the masses) by gaming the system.
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Here’s where I disagree with most. I’ve been in the casino industry as a surveillance guy and a pit boss. I have no problems with what Ivey pulled. That situation was only possible because the casino failed to follow basic procedures because they wanted the action.
 
chkmte said:
Here’s where I disagree with most. I’ve been in the casino industry as a surveillance guy and a pit boss. I have no problems with what Ivey pulled. That situation was only possible because the casino failed to follow basic procedures because they wanted the action.
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I tend to agree with you in this instance, but you can't argue with his willingness to go to extreme measures to gain an edge. So where does he draw that line, personally? Should players who frequent games with him in attendance be worried, or extra-observant/diligent?
 
Lemonzest said:
The mainstream poker world is scummy and that is all there is to it. Playing with friends that you trust and enjoy their company is better than the WSOP.
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I like MTTs, so I wade in the waters - I get it. I’ve been angled (effectively in Foxwoods, laughably in NH) so I have an idea of what’s out there. I’m just disappointed with people rationalizing it and even justifying it.
More than once I’ve read this idea that “a guy busts his ass for 15 years to become the best in the world, and then finds out he can’t get into high stakes games, so what’s he supposed to do?”
Um, how about go clean up at the $20/$40 and shut the fuck up. The fact that you’re good enough you play at the highest stakes doesn’t entitle you to play in any game you want.
 

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