Mucked Hand Prematurely (1 Viewer)

[QuiQuog]

A bonehead move on my part to toss my hand without looking at opponents cards leads to my question.

It's a Monday night bar game, early in the tourney. I forget the exact cards and the bet, but I'm last to act on the river, checked to me with on a board that looks scary for a straight. I give him credit for the straight and fear he will check raise so I check. The other player shows his cards and announces a straight and I toss my cards face down on the pile of chips. I was hasty to muck, and it turns out that he misread his hand and missed the straight. He wins with high.

My cards landed on the chips and didn't touch any other cards before it was discovered that his hand was misrepresented. Is my hand dead? Not a big deal as it was early and the pot didn't amount to much and didn't affect the outcome of the tourney, just curious how this type of situation is normally handled.

 

[manamongkids]

When it comes to doing anything prematurely, dont let yourself get down, hold your head high, know you gave it your best and get back on the horse

 

[bentax1978]

When it comes to doing anything prematurely, dont let yourself get down, hold your head high, know you gave it your best and get back on the horse

Just be aware that as you get older, it can take a little longer to get back on the horse after.




As to OP's question, I believe your hand is dead if your intent was to muck and you pushed/threw them forward face down, regardless of whether they touched any other cards.

 

[detroitdad]

When it comes to doing anything prematurely, dont let yourself get down, hold your head high, know you gave it your best and get back on the horse

well played sir.

A bonehead move on my part to toss my hand without looking at opponents cards leads to my question.

It's a Monday night bar game, early in the tourney. I forget the exact cards and the bet, but I'm last to act on the river, checked to me with on a board that looks scary for a straight. I give him credit for the straight and fear he will check raise so I check. The other player shows his cards and announces a straight and I toss my cards face down on the pile of chips. I was hasty to muck, and it turns out that he misread his hand and missed the straight. He wins with high.

My cards landed on the chips and didn't touch any other cards before it was discovered that his hand was misrepresented. Is my hand dead? Not a big deal as it was early and the pot didn't amount to much and didn't affect the outcome of the tourney, just curious how this type of situation is normally handled.

I want to say its a fold. Now if its an "all in" situation then I think we retrieve your cards if they can easily be identified.

 

[abby99]

I would rule your hand live and identifiable. Whether intentionally or accidentally, your opponent miscalled his hand, which caused you to toss your hand. Your cards were clearly identifiable. You are awarded the pot. Next hand . . .

Edit: Looks like I'm a little left of RROP:

Showdown
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

The fine point in RROP is knowing whether your opponent miscalled his hand intentionally or accidentally.
Because we don't know with 100% certainty and your hand is identifiable, I still think that the winning hand should be declared live. However, you should be warned that it's your responsibility to hold on to your cards and not rely on your opponent's declaration -- The next time your cards might not be identifiable and retrievable, in which case you'd be SOL.

 

[inca911]

I would rule your hand live and identifiable. Whether intentionally or accidentally, your opponent miscalled his hand, which caused you to toss your hand. Your cards were clearly identifiable. You are awarded the pot. Next hand . . .

This is what I would do as well. There was an WSOP ruling on this, which stated "A hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of dealer error or incorrect information given to the player."

Robert's Rules states:
"Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot."

I would also remind everyone in that game to never fold until the dealer formally awards the pot. Edit to Add: Note that if your cards were not clearly identifiable, I would unfortunatly have to award the hand to the guy who miscalled his hand.

 

[QuiQuog]

I do believe that the gentleman made an honest mistake. Lesson learned, and no hard feelings. I should get me a copy of these Roberts Rules.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Tough call on this one. First of all it's up to you to protect your hand, and you should probably get in the habit of only mucking once you see your opponent's cards, regardless of his declaration. He did misrepresent his hand, however, even if it was accidental. Normally I would allow the cards to be retrieved if they were identifiable, but you say he showed his cards and then announced his straight. I'd say you bear slightly more of the responsibility, since you were able to see his cards (despite his verbal announcement) and you should protect your hand at all times. In a friendly game I'd probably allow you to retrieve the cards, but I can see how it would be ruled otherwise.

Bottom line, and regardless of the ruling, always protect your hand. Get in the habit of not releasing your cards until the pot is pushed towards you (if you are indeed the winner). Sometimes other people make honest mistakes, and sometimes you have jerk-faces who shoot angles.

 

[detroitdad]

Just be aware that as you get older, it can take a little longer to get back on the horse after.

like 48 hours?

 

[bentax1978]

like 48 hours?

I was thinking about 55 minutes, which conveniently happens to be the amount of time between breaks during the weekly PCF/P* tournament

 

[detroitdad]

I was thinking about 55 minutes, which conveniently happens to be the amount of time between breaks during the weekly PCF/P* tournament

I'm old (well, 46, but I am a grandpa). Also don't have a ton of loot in my PP.

 

[DrStrange]

I wouldn't care one way or the other about Hero's cards. Villain over declared his hand and induced Hero to muck. I award Hero the pot if he says he could beat king high whether or not we can find Hero's hand.

DrStrange