New Tax Law Hidden In COVID Relief Bill Will Crush eBay/Paypal Sellers (3 Viewers)

[RainmanTrail]

I imagine this won’t be effecting friends and family transactions so on PCF we can continue on with business as usual. I haven’t paid for chips (except for eBay) any other way since the CT days.

It will certainly affect the way I accept payments going forward. I dint know how many transactions you've done around here where you tell the buyers to pay via "friends & family", but a significant percentage of the time, the buyers will fuck it up and pay via "goods & services". At $600, it only takes one sale for you to get a 1099 now. And refunding the buyer won't matter either. You will still have crossed the $600 threshold, and it will be your responsibility to show that you don't owe any money. With as often as this happens, I probably won't be accepting any PayPal payments at all next year. Unless it's someone who is well established here and who definitely knows how to send via friends & family. But even then, I might not. All it takes is one mistake and then I have to file a Schedule C with my tax returns and become self employed. It's a massive fucking headache. This is a major inconvenience for hobbyists. We're going to have to start tracking every penny we spend and receive.

I'll probably only be accepting bitcoin, cash, or checks starting in 2022, unless other payment processors are able to avoid this headache.

 

[RainmanTrail]

While I think it was already said, people need to remember that this change in the law does not change the taxes you owe by a single cent. It only changes reporting requirements on sales income processed via third party transaction services like PayPal.

I think a reporting threshold of $600 is unreasonably low, and it's going to be extra paperwork for a lot of people. But $20,000 was too high, and a lot of people took advantage of that to avoid paying taxes that they owed.

Feels like a happy medium would be somewhere in the $2-5K neighborhood. High enough to allow some relief for hobby sellers, low enough that it's much tougher to skirt self-employment taxes.

I'm happy to pay taxes that I actually owe. The problem I have with this is that I also sell all sorts of random shit on eBay every year. Used stuff we don't need anymore. Old speakers, used camera, a video projector I bought on Amazon that didn't work out, etc. These sales are not taxable events. But if I want to sell them on eBay going forward, I'm going to have to save every fucking receipt and try to find old receipts for random shit I bought years ago to offset the taxes that they'll claim I owe. It's just way too much fucking paperwork and a major time suck. It also drastically increases the likelihood of someone being audited when you have to file a schedule C on your tax returns. I was audited several years ago because of poker winnings, and it was a major pain in the ass gathering documents for the IRS. And the annoying part was I didn't even fuck up on my tax return. I didn't end up owing anything in the end.

I donate a lot of stuff to charity each year as well. I might just end up donating everything to charity that I would have otherwise sold on eBay now too.

This could provide a major boost to platforms like Offerup, Craigslist, and FB Marketplace where buyers and sellers typically transact with cash. Might be worth investing in one of them lol.

 

[dennis63]

I can set up an LLC in Indiana for under $100, plus have a state tax ID and federal tax ID (requested at the very least), all in under an hour.
The day after I get all of that, I can set up an email, then use those tax IDs to get an online bank account, all in under an hour.
Once that's done, I can get a credit card in the name of the business, then route my personal internet and cell phone bills through that.
Business up and running.

I thought the same thing earlier this year, and that's about how easy it was in Delaware in 2012.

Now with new (federal, nationwide) banking regulations, it's not that easy. Banks are now required to ensure that you are not depositing money from the sale of marijuana, an online gambling site or sales of non-FDIC regulated ("Green Dot"-type) debit cards.

The bank will have multiple forms to fill out, and want to see your (original, raised seal) documents for the LLC. It'll take several days to get the documents, which are mailed. Until you do, you can't set up the bank account, and can't connect it to PayPal.

I just went through all this in Delaware, the most business-friendly state in America. In 2012, I set up a sole proprietorship here in under three hours over two days. This year, It took me about two months and probably 50 hours to re-form the business under an new name as an LLC.. The LLC fee is $300 per year, the license is $90 per year.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Sorry - I wasn’t trying to be snippy about the topic, that really and truly was not my intent - lol.

My comment was a bad attempt at calling out the “intended” utility of taxes (as you described) - vs the current narrative.

Anyway - I was trying not to get too political or deep and probably came off a little snarky. Apologies- lol.

Aaaand with that... back to chips - who’s got the Saturday night candy - lol.

No offense taken and no apology required.

I was just pointing out and correcting my mistake in starting a political conversation outside the Politics sub. Your post just happened to be the last one before I did that.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

The problem I have with this is that I also sell all sorts of random shit on eBay every year. Used stuff we don't need anymore. Old speakers, used camera, a video projector I bought on Amazon that didn't work out, etc. These sales are not taxable events.

If you sell personal property for more than you paid, your profit is taxable as a capital gain and the IRS expects you to report it and pay.

Most people don't do this for small sales, but it's still required by law.

 

[davin]

Does anyone know if this will take in effect next year or is still speculation?

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Does anyone know if this will take in effect next year or is still speculation?

It'll be in effect in 2022.

 

[aggie]

Sadly, the IRS does not "bill you for taxes owed. They audit you. I've been through that once (before I started the Key West business.) You really, really don't want that.

First, it's not a small thing to say, "Just start a business and declare losses." Setting up the business takes hours of work. Business licenses and fees cost hundreds of dollars. There's daily bookkeeping. Tax reporting requirements take hours of work, monthly or quarterly. Your annual tax reporting? Better hire a professional for several hundred dollars to make sure their done right, or you'll get audited. (I actually met a PCF member in person once who told me he loved Key West but he "couldn't believe I haven't done more with it." He had no idea how many hours are involved in just keeping records and reporting to the governent.)

If you think crypto is the answer, I know the IRS is already requiring you to report (on 2020 taxes) if you bought or sold any crypto currency.

Tax policy changes like this new $600 reporting requirement will greatly hinder, if not kill, this hobby we love, at least among members who don't have a business license already.

Time to consider alternatives within this community. Something similar to Hawala, where trusted brokers exchange the items of value or cash in person.

I agree wholeheartedly this is an overreach and am completely opposed to it. However ......

It actually is a small thing. It would take an average 1040 filer maybe an extra 30 minutes at tax time to handle it (and possibly having to pay for a higher level of Turbotax or similar, which can also be written off an expense).

No need to "set up a business" or "file for a license" or "create an LLC" or any of that unless you have an actual business on your hands. You simply report your 1099 income (against your expenses) as a Sole Proprietor under your SSN.

Substitute teachers, daycare workers, dog walkers, millions(?) of people paid via 1099 all do it without "setting up a business" ... if you earn more than $600 from any business without being an employee, you get a 1099 and in turn have a right to report expenses against it. It's just really not that complicated.

Start tracking what you spent via Paypal (and when), and what you sold it for (and when). Or maybe Paypal even provides a list of transactions? Then if a few extra hundred bucks back is worth 15 more minutes typing in additional expenses, do that too.

Hoping this helps others who have no interest in "setting up a business".

 

[FDLmold]

It will certainly affect the way I accept payments going forward. I dint know how many transactions you've done around here where you tell the buyers to pay via "friends & family", but a significant percentage of the time, the buyers will fuck it up and pay via "goods & services". At $600, it only takes one sale for you to get a 1099 now. And refunding the buyer won't matter either. You will still have crossed the $600 threshold, and it will be your responsibility to show that you don't owe any money. With as often as this happens, I probably won't be accepting any PayPal payments at all next year. Unless it's someone who is well established here and who definitely knows how to send via friends & family. But even then, I might not. All it takes is one mistake and then I have to file a Schedule C with my tax returns and become self employed. It's a massive fucking headache. This is a major inconvenience for hobbyists. We're going to have to start tracking every penny we spend and receive.

I'll probably only be accepting bitcoin, cash, or checks starting in 2022, unless other payment processors are able to avoid this headache.

postal and walmart money orders might start to make a comeback too
my recent favorite is amazon gift certificates, because people in other countries can use their credit cards and i'm not sure there is much dinging for the exchange rate going on either

 

[JustDogbert]

Well, I use eBay to sell off used electronics and that has ALWAYS been at a loss so I can't really say that I'm impacted one way or another...

But I thought this would be a good place to share one of my favorite quotes:

The avoidance of taxes is the only intellectual pursuit that still carries any reward.
--John Maynard Keynes

 

[RainmanTrail]

If you sell personal property for more than you paid, your profit is taxable as a capital gain and the IRS expects you to report it and pay.

Most people don't do this for small sales, but it's still required by law.

Right, but I'm talking about stuff that you pretty much always sell at a loss. Online garage sale type stuff.

But if the IRS is going to force me to start treating my eBay online garage sale items as a business, then I'm going to start taking all the deductions that go along with it. Every time I go to the store to buy something, I get to write off that mileage. And I get to write off 25% of my home and utility bills as my home office too. I'd prefer not to have to mess with any of that stuff, but if they're going to force me into being a "business", then I might as well do it right.

 

[davin]

Right, but I'm talking about stuff that you pretty much always sell at a loss. Online garage sale type stuff.

But if the IRS is going to force me to start treating my eBay online garage sale items as a business, then I'm going to start taking all the deductions that go along with it. Every time I go to the store to buy something, I get to write off that mileage. And I get to write off 25% of my home and utility bills as my home office too. I'd prefer not to have to mess with any of that stuff, but if they're going to force me into being a "business", then I might as well do it right.

LLC company’s will grow in 2022

 

[FDLmold]

I am buying a bagger for my zero turn mower. I have half a mind to turn it into a landscaping business investment and start depreciating it. Drive around the neighborhood and offer to gather leaves for sweet cash.

 

[SiouxperStack]

Right, but I'm talking about stuff that you pretty much always sell at a loss. Online garage sale type stuff.

But if the IRS is going to force me to start treating my eBay online garage sale items as a business, then I'm going to start taking all the deductions that go along with it. Every time I go to the store to buy something, I get to write off that mileage. And I get to write off 25% of my home and utility bills as my home office too. I'd prefer not to have to mess with any of that stuff, but if they're going to force me into being a "business", then I might as well do it right.

I agree, it’s a massive burden to the tax payers. It’s ridiculous to expect people to prove that the items they’re selling on eBay are being sold at a loss. A 20k threshold was just fine.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Right, but I'm talking about stuff that you pretty much always sell at a loss. Online garage sale type stuff.

But if the IRS is going to force me to start treating my eBay online garage sale items as a business, then I'm going to start taking all the deductions that go along with it. Every time I go to the store to buy something, I get to write off that mileage. And I get to write off 25% of my home and utility bills as my home office too. I'd prefer not to have to mess with any of that stuff, but if they're going to force me into being a "business", then I might as well do it right.

So first of all, I'm not arguing the stupidity of a reporting threshold of $600. It's unreasonably low. But there's been some legally shaky advice in this thread. I'm not a tax lawyer, but here's how it works as I currently understand it.

1) You cannot just "start a business" and use it to take deductions and offset hobby profits. The IRS requires that for a sideline activity to be considered a business, it must have either made a profit in three of the last five years, or you must meet guidelines that they use to differentiate a business from a hobby. It's not as easy as "I say it's a business, therefore it's a business."

2) You used to be able to claim hobby expenses as a miscellaneous itemized deduction (up to but not exceeding your total hobby profits and subject to the 2% AGI limitation). This deduction was eliminated by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) in 2018, and will not be permitted again until 2025 per that law.

So under current law (TCJA), you can't even use hobby expenses to offset profits. So if I spend $1000 and earn $500, I still have to pay tax on that $500 and I cannot deduct the hobby-related losses.

 

[RainmanTrail]

So first of all, I'm not arguing the stupidity of a reporting threshold of $600. It's unreasonably low. But there's been some legally shaky advice in this thread. I'm not a tax lawyer, but here's how it works as I currently understand it.

1) You cannot just "start a business" and use it to take deductions and offset hobby profits. The IRS requires that for a sideline activity to be considered a business, it must have either made a profit in three of the last five years, or you must meet guidelines that they use to differentiate a business from a hobby. It's not as easy as "I say it's a business, therefore it's a business."

2) You used to be able to claim hobby expenses as a miscellaneous itemized deduction (up to but not exceeding your total hobby profits and subject to the 2% AGI limitation). This deduction was eliminated by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) in 2018, and will not be permitted again until 2025 per that law.

So under current law (TCJA), you can't even use hobby expenses to offset profits. So if I spend $1000 and earn $500, I still have to pay tax on that $500 and I cannot deduct the hobby-related losses.

Good points. However, it's worth keeping in mind that if in any year in that 3 (might be 5) year window, your "business" makes a profit; say you sold some chips for more than you paid (I know, I know, nobody does that around here), or you sold a few baseball cards on eBay for a profit, then you *are* a business. If the IRS wants to charge me for making $56 on a baseball card then I get to write off my expenses too (if I paid to have the card graded, that counts as an expense).

My point is, all of this is just an unnecessary massive headache for most small time sellers and hobbyists on eBay. There were good reasons to have higher thresholds in the past.

The worst part to me is that this is all in an effort to raise ~1B in total additional revenue annually per their estimate. And it's all from squeezing the little guy. Shake down all the gig workers and small time sellers. They might have earned $37 that they failed to report! It's just a ridiculous tree to be shaking if you're trying to find some fruit. If they need 1B that badly, maybe they should get rid of some of these bullshit loopholes that allow people like Trump to pay $750 or Google & Amazon to pay ~2% of profits, dodging hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes by running these mega corporations through a PO Box in Ireland.

 

[DMack]

Good points. However, it's worth keeping in mind that if in any year in that 3 (might be 5) year window, your "business" makes a profit; say you sold some chips for more than you paid (I know, I know, nobody does that around here), or you sold a few baseball cards on eBay for a profit, then you *are* a business. If the IRS wants to charge me for making $56 on a baseball card then I get to write off my expenses too (if I paid to have the card graded, that counts as an expense).

My point is, all of this is just an unnecessary massive headache for most small time sellers and hobbyists on eBay. There were good reasons to have higher thresholds in the past.

The worst part to me is that this is all in an effort to raise ~1B in total additional revenue annually per their estimate. And it's all from squeezing the little guy. Shake down all the gig workers and small time sellers. They might have earned $37 that they failed to report! It's just a ridiculous tree to be shaking if you're trying to find some fruit. If they need 1B that badly, maybe they should get rid of some of these bullshit loopholes that allow people like Trump to pay $750 or Google & Amazon to pay ~2% of profits, dodging hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes by running these mega corporations through a PO Box in Ireland.

Travis,

You had a great post going until your derangement kicked in, my friend!! Why not throw a couple Dems names on there?? You know, the ones that constantly want more taxes but refuse to voluntarily pay them themselves? Your neighbor, Waxy Nancy, could start the bidding!

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Good points. However, it's worth keeping in mind that if in any year in that 3 (might be 5) year window, your "business" makes a profit; say you sold some chips for more than you paid (I know, I know, nobody does that around here), or you sold a few baseball cards on eBay for a profit, then you *are* a business. If the IRS wants to charge me for making $56 on a baseball card then I get to write off my expenses too (if I paid to have the card graded, that counts as an expense).

My point is, all of this is just an unnecessary massive headache for most small time sellers and hobbyists on eBay. There were good reasons to have higher thresholds in the past.

The worst part to me is that this is all in an effort to raise ~1B in total additional revenue annually per their estimate. And it's all from squeezing the little guy. Shake down all the gig workers and small time sellers. They might have earned $37 that they failed to report! It's just a ridiculous tree to be shaking if you're trying to find some fruit. If they need 1B that badly, maybe they should get rid of some of these bullshit loopholes that allow people like Trump to pay $750 or Google & Amazon to pay ~2% of profits, dodging hundreds of billions of dollars in taxes by running these mega corporations through a PO Box in Ireland.

I'm not going to argue with your post, since I agree with most of it. If I was in charge of prioritizing which uncollected taxes to go after, this probably wouldn't be top of the list.

I just want to make sure that people understand the reality of how the IRS classifies a business vs. a hobby. Read the rules, talk to your accountant if you've got one, and make sure you don't do something dumb that costs you more money in the long run.

 

[dajebriza]

The IRS is increasing their number of audits on the poorer brackets and lessening them on the upper 1%. The IRS commissioner has stated that it's pure economics. It's cheaper to audit poorer people because that can be done en-masse by automated systems and low-level non-expert IRS personnel. Auditing wealthy, complex tax returns, requires their most skilled, highest paid and fewest in number accountant tax experts because they need to chase down income in a very complex tax package of multiple forms, deductions, itemization, etc. The IRS has been defunded for years now and they just don't have the resources to chase down many wealthy audits anymore, so they are focussing on lower income where they still have the preponderance of resources to hand out audits and process them without much skill.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

The IRS is increasing their number of audits on the poorer brackets and lessening them on the upper 1%. The IRS commissioner has stated that its pure economics. Its cheaper to audit poorer people because that can be done en-masse by automated systems and low-level non-expert IRS personnel. Auditing wealthy, complex tax returns requires their most skilled, highest paid and fewest in number accountant tax experts because they need to chase down income in a very complex tax package of multiple forms, deductions, itemization, etc. The IRS has been defunded for years now and they just don't have the resources to chase down wealthy audits anymore, so they are focussing on lower income where they still have the preponderance of resources to hand out audits and process them without much skill.

Source?

 

[dajebriza]

https://www.propublica.org/article/...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

The IRS has a significantly lower budget today than it did 10 years ago. Its been steadily defunded over the last decade.

 

[cpiaaq]

 

[johnjohn]

https://www.propublica.org/article/...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

The IRS has a significantly lower budget today than it did 10 years ago. Its been steadily defunded over the last decade.

View attachment 675731

View attachment 675732

 

[Schmendr1ck]

The IRS is increasing their number of audits on the poorer brackets and lessening them on the upper 1%. The IRS commissioner has stated that it's pure economics. It's cheaper to audit poorer people because that can be done en-masse by automated systems and low-level non-expert IRS personnel. Auditing wealthy, complex tax returns, requires their most skilled, highest paid and fewest in number accountant tax experts because they need to chase down income in a very complex tax package of multiple forms, deductions, itemization, etc. The IRS has been defunded for years now and they just don't have the resources to chase down many wealthy audits anymore, so they are focussing on lower income where they still have the preponderance of resources to hand out audits and process them without much skill.

The majority of what you say here is true. However, it's misleading to say that the IRS is increasing audits on the poor.

Most audits for lower-income households occur when an IRS system flags a return for likely errors in Earned Income Tax Credits (EITC). This is the largest chunk of the $40 billion in improperly claimed tax credits every year, and these issues are typically handled by lower level auditors via "correspondence examinations" (i.e. audit-by-mail). These errors are easy to find, easy to fix, very inexpensive to audit, and have a pretty high success rate.

According to a CBO report from last July, higher-income individuals were more likely to be audited than lower-income individuals over the period 2010-2018. However, the examination rate (percentage of returns that were successfully audited) fell over this period for higher-income individuals while it stayed about the same for lower-income individuals.

Because of shrinking budgets and other policy changes, the attrition rate for experienced examiners is higher than that for any other group. These are the examiners that are needed to successfully execute complex audits on high-income individuals and corporations.

So, it's not that they're increasing audits on the poor. It's that audits on the poor are cheaper and easier, so the rate is staying fairly constant. More audits are initiated on wealthier individuals, but these audits are more complex, more expensive, and require experienced examiners that have been leaving the IRS in droves. So of course, the completion rates on these audits has been steadily dropping.

Sources:
Dept of Treasury letter to Senator Ron Wyden, Sept 2019.
Trends in the Internal Revenue Service's Funding and Enforcement, CBO, July 2020.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

The majority of what you say here is true. However, it's misleading to say that the IRS is increasing audits on the poor.

Most audits for lower-income households occur when an IRS system flags a return for likely errors in Earned Income Tax Credits (EITC). This is the largest chunk of the $40 billion in improperly claimed tax credits every year, and these issues are typically handled by lower level auditors via "correspondence examinations" (i.e. audit-by-mail). These errors are easy to find, easy to fix, very inexpensive to audit, and have a pretty high success rate.

According to a CBO report from last July, higher-income individuals were more likely to be audited than lower-income individuals over the period 2010-2018. However, the examination rate (percentage of returns that were successfully audited) fell over this period for higher-income individuals while it stayed about the same for lower-income individuals.

Because of shrinking budgets and other policy changes, the attrition rate for experienced examiners is higher than that for any other group. These are the examiners that are needed to successfully execute complex audits on high-income individuals and corporations.

So, it's not that they're increasing audits on the poor. It's that audits on the poor are cheaper and easier, so the rate is staying fairly constant. More audits are initiated on wealthier individuals, but these audits are more complex, more expensive, and require experienced examiners that have been leaving the IRS in droves. So of course, the completion rates on these audits has been steadily dropping.

Sources:
Dept of Treasury letter to Senator Ron Wyden, Sept 2019.
Trends in the Internal Revenue Service's Funding and Enforcement, CBO, July 2020.

Thanks for the info. Stupid they reduce funds to the one sector of government that makes a return per $1 spent on it even if its most people's least favorite.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Thanks for the info. Stupid they reduce funds to the one sector of government that makes a return per $1 spent on it even if its most people's least favorite.

Yeah, I left that out of my last post, but CBO says that if we give the IRS $20 billion more next year, they'll generate $61 billion in additional revenue with it.

 

[dajebriza]

Isn't it obvious? Because the very people in congress that would have to vote to make this happen work for the upper income level that would be targeted.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Isn't it obvious? Because the very people in congress that would have to vote to make this happen work for the upper income level that would be targeted.

Well let's see what happens: Biden proposes $1.2B increase in IRS budget.

I should note that while it sounds small, it's a 10.4% increase over this year's budget.

 

[churlbut18]

I was just skimming this quickly... so it looks like this change to $600 starts in 2022? So does that mean any sales prior to 1/1/2022 won’t qualify, or are sales taking place now (say Jan 2021 through today) qualifying against that $600 for next year’s filing?

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I was just skimming this quickly... so it looks like this change to $600 starts in 2022? So does that mean any sales prior to 1/1/2022 won’t qualify, or are sales taking place now (say Jan 2021 through today) qualifying against that $600 for next year’s filing?

Effective 1/1/2022, so sales this year will be reported under the old threshold.