PAHWM: $1/$2 QQ in unusual spot (1 Viewer)

[Frogzilla]

I don’t know that villains lead is bad…she has Kx advantage after the xc flop line. All in is a reasonable size. If balanced it’s a decent play.

Anyone with Pio able to confirm?

 

[Legend5555]

Modern poker theory. Specifically to get your hand to fold. If you think V is capable of 3 betting with a suited connector/1 gapper with or without position then she is certainly capable of shoving here without a K. Admittedly this is online 1/2. How out of line do people get anyway right? Curious to hear the outcome.

If you had AA in this spot what percentage of the time do you see yourself folding? And let’s say the stakes were 5/10 instead. Thought exercise.

Think of this as a live game. It basically is. It's nothing like actually online like ACR or Bovada. You can buy in 500bb deep in this game.

 

[DirtyTIVA]

Interesting question here and a hand I potentially missed. In theory with this hand, this line kinda makes sense. What about

That’s a possible hand here and a shove (while very bold) could be a thing here. Raise, flat, float, and get a really good turn card. It’s a bold move, but it’s possible.

Exactly my point. Hero’s hand as played beats a lot of hands with that line: 45h 56h TT JJ. At my beginner home game if someone asks “does 3 of a kind beat 2 pair?” and then shoves like that it’s auto fold. V’s line doesn’t feel like a K. At higher stakes shoving here with KQ/AK/set could be a profitable move specifically to catch the good players who don’t think the line makes any sense. Modern poker theory. Wouldn’t expect it at 1/2 online though. I usually assume a lot of GTO online and multitabling would not allow for this level of creativity.

 

[Legend5555]

Modern poker theory. Specifically to get your hand to fold. If you think V is capable of 3 betting with a suited connector/1 gapper with or without position then she is certainly capable of shoving here without a K. Admittedly this is online 1/2. How out of line do people get anyway right? Curious to hear the outcome.

If you had AA in this spot what percentage of the time do you see yourself folding? And let’s say the stakes were 5/10 instead. Thought exercise.

I hear what you are saying, and I have thoughts. But I don't want to talk about them yet.

 

[Stackme]

To me, this is a clear value call with QQ. Yes, its possible villain is value shoving here with some Kx or a few other hands that are beating us like AA, 444, 777... we also know that this villain is not prone to bluffing often on big hands like this one. However, the turned K could convince her that her under-pair to the kings is good, and that a value shove is the right move for her... In this situation, in addition to some hands that are beating us and even taking bluffs out of her range, I have to give her a significant number of 88-JJ hands, and even a few A7 and A4hh are possible holdings.

Therefore, even with removal of bluff holdings I still think there are enough villain hands we are beating to make it worth a call here. Note that the K on the turn significantly reduces the number of combos containing Kings that she can have in this spot, which is what makes this an easier call in my mind... Of course this doesn't mean we hold the winner, it just means that in my mind she does this with enough hands that we are beating to make the call profitable.

 

[ninedeuce]

Part 2
1/2 App game on Pokerrrrr 2

Villain is an late 50s female I play with live fairly frequently. Limps a lot. Raises fairly tight. But raises bigger with hands she doesn't like playing post flop like medium to high pairs, AQ, AK. Limps KJo in early to middle position. Will raise hands like it to "normal" size if folded to get in later positions.

Standard open raise in this game is $6-10 depending on the player. Her standard is $6-8.

Villain is the effective stack at $189 and is in +1. Hero covers at $305 and is in HJ.

UTG folds.
+1 raises to $12.
Folds to Hero.
Hero 3 bets to $35 with .
Folds back to +1 who snap calls.

Pot: $73
Eff stack: $154
Flop:

+1 checks.
Hero bets $23.
+1 quickly calls.

Given that I think the villain plays pretty straightforward, and this is a high but not 100% bet type flop. I elect to range bet. I feel if she has AK, she is probably going to check/raise or even lead with some frequency. And I think the small bet gets called by 99+ a decent amount.

Pot: $119
Eff stack: $131
Turn:

+1 waits about 4 seconds then jams for $131.

Hero?

Interesting spot!

Am still going to assume that based on villain's unusually large preflop raise, her range is: 77-QQ, AK, AQ

That preflop bet from this kind of player basically announces: "I think I have the best hand now, but I'm scared of being outdrawn."

The turn holdings that most consistently match that sentiment are the pairs in her range (88-QQ), trying to deny you your Ax equity, and maybe thinking you might call with a worse pair. This player really only has AK in her range here, and she's probably checking that 100% of the time on this turn, waiting for the river to lead if you check back the turn.

FWIW there are a few players I play with in an online .5/1 game who take this kind of line all the time with middle pairs on non-A boards in 3b pots, inadvertently turning their showdown value hands into bluffs because they think that villain is bluffy and don't want to face a tough spot on the river.

Also think the 4 sec pause is consistent with this explanation. Assuming there is genuine indecision, the indecision is between check and bet.

Obviously, she also might suffer from flush-phobia with something like AcKd and desperately does not want to be outdrawn that way, either.

She has eight combos of AK, and 25 combos of 88-QQ.

So I'd lean towards a call here.

 

[JMC9389]

Interesting spot!

Am still going to assume that based on villain's unusually large preflop raise, her range is: 77-QQ, AK, AQ

That preflop bet from this kind of player basically announces: "I think I have the best hand now, but I'm scared of being outdrawn."

The turn holdings that most consistently match that sentiment are the pairs in her range (88-QQ), trying to deny you your Ax equity, and maybe thinking you might call with a worse pair. This player really only has AK in her range here, and she's probably checking that 100% of the time on this turn, waiting for the river to lead if you check back the turn.

FWIW there are a few players I play with in an online .5/1 game who take this kind of line all the time with middle pairs on non-A boards in 3b pots, inadvertently turning their showdown value hands into bluffs because they think that villain is bluffy and don't want to face a tough spot on the river.

Also think the 4 sec pause is consistent with this explanation. Assuming there is genuine indecision, the indecision is between check and bet.

Obviously, she also might suffer from flush-phobia with something like AcKd and desperately does not want to be outdrawn that way, either.

She has eight combos of AK, and 25 combos of 88-QQ.

So I'd lean towards a call here.

I'd add K/Q and K/J to this player's range per the OP's read. Maybe even some Kx suited hands (K10, K9) with connectivity that can open in early position as well.

 

[CraigT78]

If you played Omaha (or circus) instead of NLHE this would be a snap fold.

So there's that.

 

[boltonguy]

The only reason to consider calling here is the title of the thread which suggests that she doesn’t have Kx here … that wouldn’t be very unusual

 

[Stackme]

The only reason to consider calling here is the title of the thread which suggests that she doesn’t have Kx here … that wouldn’t be very unusual

LOL, love it, I was looking at the title thinking along similar lines... the only thing that might make this hand "unusual" might be if she also has QQ

 

[Senzrock]

I will refrain from chiming in since @Legend5555 already texted me this hand a few days prior - interesting spot for sure!

 

[Legend5555]

Conclusion

1/2 App game on Pokerrrrr 2

Villain is an late 50s female I play with live fairly frequently. Limps a lot. Raises fairly tight. But raises bigger with hands she doesn't like playing post flop like medium to high pairs, AQ, AK. Limps KJo in early to middle position. Will raise hands like it to "normal" size if folded to get in later positions.

Standard open raise in this game is $6-10 depending on the player. Her standard is $6-8.

Villain is the effective stack at $189 and is in +1. Hero covers at $305 and is in HJ.

UTG folds.
+1 raises to $12.
Folds to Hero.
Hero 3 bets to $35 with .
Folds back to +1 who snap calls.

Pot: $73
Eff stack: $154
Flop:

+1 checks.
Hero bets $23.
+1 quickly calls.

Given that I think the villain plays pretty straightforward, and this is a high but not 100% bet type flop. I elect to range bet. I feel if she has AK, she is probably going to check/raise or even lead with some frequency. And I think the small bet gets called by 99+ a decent amount.

Pot: $119
Eff stack: $131
Turn:

+1 waits about 4 seconds then jams for $131.

I was quite taken aback by this. My initial reaction was, "why?!?"

So addressing the "could this be theoretically correct with something like 5h6h?" I guess. But what are the other bluffs here exactly? Does this player type even open that hand ever? Quite unlikely. And more importantly, what is the value? The obvious is AK. But again, does this player type play AK like this? 44? 77?

Let's think about those. One, she needs to open them for this sizing instead of raising smaller or limping. That matches AK fine, but not 44 or 77. Two, she needs to not check raise or lead (she donks a decent amount, maybe like 25% of the time with stuff like TP). AK could still do this I guess, though players like this often just go for it on the flop with TPTK when the pot is this big. Three, she would need to just decide to open jam a hand that is a near lock to win and potentially blowing me off everything that isn't AA or AK. The combination of all these things seems like a stretch for all the monster hands.

And it's unlikely she has any hand that is a natural bluff with equity. So what does that leave? Well 88-JJ would certainly peel the flop to my small sizing. And they fall more into the category of "raise big pre because I'm uncomfortable playing these post flop" type hands. The 2nd K makes it less likely either of us have a K. So she could be unknowingly turning 88-JJ (maybe just TT and JJ) into a bluff under the thinking of "I don't know what to do if I face another bet, and I might just call anyway, so I'll jam and just hope he doesn't have a K."

I took up nearly my whole time bank and just thought it would be very rare for her to play value this way, and it's hard for her to have 44, 77, or KQ. And I don't think AK risks blowing me off my hand. So since it seemed so hard for her to have value and I thought there was a chance she could be overplaying a pair after the 2nd K hit. I called.

Villain turns over .

But there is no justice in the world, and the hits the river. But she won. So it was obviously the correct play. RESULTS!!!

 

[Frogzilla]

Good call.

Still interested in Villains lead. I think it’s reasonable for a donk jam range, curious if Pio agrees. I’ve been in that spot defending cbet OOP and always wonder if I should lead turn. @boltonguy mind solving if you have comp time?

Also curious if you three bet AJs much against that open size @Legend5555 , if that’s in your 3! range then JJ is an awful candidate for V’s donk jam. If it’s not, maybe it’s not awful, just bad.

 

[Legend5555]

Good call.

Still interested in Villains lead. I think it’s reasonable for a donk jam range, curious if Pio agrees. I’ve been in that spot defending cbet OOP and always wonder if I should lead turn. @boltonguy mind solving if you have comp time?

Also curious if you three bet AJs much against that open size @Legend5555 , if that’s in your 3! range then JJ is an awful candidate for V’s donk jam. If it’s not, maybe it’s not awful, just bad.

Against her specifically using this size, I'm probably not 3 betting AJs at a high frequency, and especially not at under 100bb effective. I wouldn't say never though.

 

[Stackme]

Conclusion

1/2 App game on Pokerrrrr 2

Villain is an late 50s female I play with live fairly frequently. Limps a lot. Raises fairly tight. But raises bigger with hands she doesn't like playing post flop like medium to high pairs, AQ, AK. Limps KJo in early to middle position. Will raise hands like it to "normal" size if folded to get in later positions.

Standard open raise in this game is $6-10 depending on the player. Her standard is $6-8.

Villain is the effective stack at $189 and is in +1. Hero covers at $305 and is in HJ.

UTG folds.
+1 raises to $12.
Folds to Hero.
Hero 3 bets to $35 with .
Folds back to +1 who snap calls.

Pot: $73
Eff stack: $154
Flop:

+1 checks.
Hero bets $23.
+1 quickly calls.

Given that I think the villain plays pretty straightforward, and this is a high but not 100% bet type flop. I elect to range bet. I feel if she has AK, she is probably going to check/raise or even lead with some frequency. And I think the small bet gets called by 99+ a decent amount.

Pot: $119
Eff stack: $131
Turn:

+1 waits about 4 seconds then jams for $131.

I was quite taken aback by this. My initial reaction was, "why?!?"

So addressing the "could this be theoretically correct with something like 5h6h?" I guess. But what are the other bluffs here exactly? Does this player type even open that hand ever? Quite unlikely. And more importantly, what is the value? The obvious is AK. But again, does this player type play AK like this? 44? 77?

Let's think about those. One, she needs to open them for this sizing instead of raising smaller or limping. That matches AK fine, but not 44 or 77. Two, she needs to not check raise or lead (she donks a decent amount, maybe like 25% of the time with stuff like TP). AK could still do this I guess, though players like this often just go for it on the flop with TPTK when the pot is this big. Three, she would need to just decide to open jam a hand that is a near lock to win and potentially blowing me off everything that isn't AA or AK. The combination of all these things seems like a stretch for all the monster hands.

And it's unlikely she has any hand that is a natural bluff with equity. So what does that leave? Well 88-JJ would certainly peel the flop to my small sizing. And they fall more into the category of "raise big pre because I'm uncomfortable playing these post flop" type hands. The 2nd K makes it less likely either of us have a K. So she could be unknowingly turning 88-JJ (maybe just TT and JJ) into a bluff under the thinking of "I don't know what to do if I face another bet, and I might just call anyway, so I'll jam and just hope he doesn't have a K."

I took up nearly my whole time bank and just thought it would be very rare for her to play value this way, and it's hard for her to have 44, 77, or KQ. And I don't think AK risks blowing me off my hand. So since it seemed so hard for her to have value and I thought there was a chance she could be overplaying a pair after the 2nd K hit. I called.

Villain turns over .

But there is no justice in the world, and the hits the river. But she won. So it was obviously the correct play. RESULTS!!!

Good call, and standard poker result Thanks for sharing this hand here!

 

[si3v3]

1/2 App game on Pokerrrrr 2

Villain is an late 50s female I play with live fairly frequently. Limps a lot. Raises fairly tight. But raises bigger with hands she doesn't like playing post flop like medium to high pairs, AQ, AK. Limps KJo in early to middle position. Will raise hands like it to "normal" size if folded to get in later positions.

Standard open raise in this game is $6-10 depending on the player. Her standard is $6-8.

Villain is the effective stack at $189 and is in +1. Hero covers at $305 and is in HJ.

UTG folds.
+1 raises to $12.
Folds to Hero.
Hero 3 bets to $35 with .
Folds back to +1 who snap calls.

Pot: $73
Eff stack: $154
Flop:

+1 checks.

Hero?

I think you can continuation bet but a check is ok here too and maybe the better play. Some good players might feel the need to continuation bet all the time on the flop and try to pick up the pot but if you check and then get checked to again on turn you can bet like 50 maybe utg calls and then checks again and you can bet 50 again and get some value for those queens or you lose a little but i still like that play. Very easy to continuation bet the flop though and often pick up the pot right there. Maybe 65-70 on the flop Nd if you get raised muck it