PAHWM - $1/$3 JTs in a straddled shallow stack spot (2 Viewers)

[Legend5555]

My typical $1/$3 $10 rake private game.

Relevant villains:

LJ (stack: $800)- Young aggressive asian kid ~22-25yo. Understands the game, how to structure 3 barrel bluffs, and board textures. However, plays too loose pre especially his isolating raising range against players that are basically never folding. Have seen him 3 barrel with 5h7h when he flopped a gutter, turned a FD, and bricked river.

SB (stack $450) - OMC. Capable of making some occasional bluffs, but it's typically in smallish-medium sized pots. Min 3 bets his big pairs pre. Plays most suited Aces, broadways, and smaller pairs as calls when raised in front of him. Mostly fast plays his strong hands, though gets trappy about 25-35% of the time.

Hero (stack $770).

$10 straddle from UTG.

Folds to LJ who raises to $30.
I'm in HJ with and call.
SB calls.
BB calls.
Straddle completes.

I will sometimes 3 bet JTs, but not this shallow and with so many players still behind. I'd more like to do it in a squeeze type spot when deeper and in the CO or on the Button.

Pot: $150

Flop:

Checks to LJ who bets $75.

HERO? (SB, BB and UTG still to act behind)

 

[dkersey]

Call.

 

[Kain8]

If you get check-raised, that's $75 down the tubes. You're only getting 2 to 1 on your current call to draw as well to a non-nut flush, which brings reverse implied odds into view.

I'd fold.

 

[JWC]

If you get check-raised, that's $75 down the tubes. You're only getting 2 to 1 on your current call to draw as well to a non-nut flush, which brings reverse implied odds into view.

I'd fold.

I was thinking call / raise, because they are close together clubs. But you are right, what is he really drawing to? I think it’s a fold.

 

[Legend5555]

Some further context. LJ tends to bet on the larger side (half pot+) post flop for most of his bet sizes. He also c-bets too frequently in multiway spots IMO.

 

[MrCatPants]

These hands are tough, because although it's not an ideal flop, it's within the range of flops you are looking for. Why call pre if you'll fold this flop?

That said, I don't think this is a raise either - non nut flush draw, multi way, when one of these flatters is likely to have a king in their range. I just call.

 

[Legend5555]

Part 2

My typical $1/$3 $10 rake private game.
Relevant villains:

LJ (stack: $800)- Young aggressive asian kid ~22-25yo. Understands the game, how to structure 3 barrel bluffs, and board textures. However, plays too loose pre especially his isolating raising range against players that are basically never folding. Have seen him 3 barrel with 5h7h when he flopped a gutter, turned a FD, and bricked river.

SB (stack $450) - OMC. Capable of making some occasional bluffs, but it's typically in smallish-medium sized pots. Min 3 bets his big pairs pre. Plays most suited Aces, broadways, and smaller pairs as calls when raised in front of him. Mostly fast plays his strong hands, though gets trappy about 25-35% of the time.

Hero (stack $770).

$10 straddle from UTG.

Folds to LJ who raises to $30.
I'm in HJ with and call.
SB calls.
BB calls.
Straddle completes.

I will sometimes 3 bet JTs, but not this shallow and with so many players still behind. I'd more like to do it in a squeeze type spot when deeper and in the CO or on the Button.

Pot: $150

Flop:

Checks to LJ who bets $75.
HERO calls.
SB calls.
Rest fold.

Pot: $375

Turn:

Checks to hero.

HERO?

 

[grebe]

Pot is 375, we have about $600 behind?

we have 15 outs 1 time, so about 30% equity. Do you think you have any fold equity here against a pair of Kings from LJ? You can try a check/jam, or you can call his bet of 200 or 250 and hope to make your hand. If SB jams first, that would suck.

I think I would check and hope for a free river, or a bet/call from SB to give us great odds to draw. If we get a bet/jam from SB, I probably just fold.

 

[Legend5555]

Pot is 375, we have about $600 behind?

we have 15 outs 1 time, so about 30% equity. Do you think you have any fold equity here against a pair of Kings from LJ? You can try a check/jam, or you can call his bet of 200 or 250 and hope to make your hand. If SB jams first, that would suck.

I think I would check and hope for a free river, or a bet/call from SB to give us great odds to draw. If we get a bet/jam from SB, I probably just fold.

I'm in position

 

[MrCatPants]

This is another card that although it doesn't build equity it gives us additional clean outs. If we think villain ever potentially folds to a bet here I'm probably leading to fold out cbets that missed. Even if called we've still got decent equity going into the river.

2/3 pot.

 

[grebe]

I'm in position

My bad. Check and realize equity. Check raise is gross.

 

[JoeBGo]

I’m checking here, taking the free card and hoping to get a slam dunk river card where we can play for stacks.

 

[Legend5555]

Part 3

My typical $1/$3 $10 rake private game.
Relevant villains:

LJ (stack: $800)- Young aggressive asian kid ~22-25yo. Understands the game, how to structure 3 barrel bluffs, and board textures. However, plays too loose pre especially his isolating raising range against players that are basically never folding. Have seen him 3 barrel with 5h7h when he flopped a gutter, turned a FD, and bricked river.

SB (stack $450) - OMC. Capable of making some occasional bluffs, but it's typically in smallish-medium sized pots. Min 3 bets his big pairs pre. Plays most suited Aces, broadways, and smaller pairs as calls when raised in front of him. Mostly fast plays his strong hands, though gets trappy about 25-35% of the time.

Hero (stack $770).

$10 straddle from UTG.

Folds to LJ who raises to $30.
I'm in HJ with and call.
SB calls.
BB calls.
Straddle completes.

I will sometimes 3 bet JTs, but not this shallow and with so many players still behind. I'd more like to do it in a squeeze type spot when deeper and in the CO or on the Button.

Pot: $150

Flop:

Checks to LJ who bets $75.
HERO calls.
SB calls.
Rest fold.

Pot: $375

Turn:

Checks to hero.
Hero decided to take his equity and check back.

River

OMC in SB rips it for $345.
LJ tanks for 90 seconds and folds.

HERO?

 

[dkersey]

Grudgingly fold to OMCs AcXc.

 

[Kain8]

Pretty bad when the 5th nuts is nothing but a bluff catcher. The reverse implied odds I mentioned beforehand has reared its ugly head. If you've labelled them as OMC, then it's a fold you can be pretty certain of.

 

[MrCatPants]

Grudgingly fold to OMCs AcXc.

Is a true OMC really betting a semibluff flush draw though?

would make OMC sense here. Given the profile, you're saying KK wouldn't make sense here as he would have min raised it.

If our read is rock solid you can find a fold here. If it's a light read/limited experience you have to call this.

 

[Legend5555]

Is a true OMC really betting a semibluff flush draw though?

would make OMC sense here. Given the profile, you're saying KK wouldn't make sense here as he would have min raised it.

If our read is rock solid you can find a fold here. If it's a light read/limited experience you have to call this.

OMC never bet in this hand until river. LJ raised pre, I called from HJ, OMC in SB called. OMC check called flop. Checked turn. Jammed into two players on river.

 

[MrCatPants]

OMC never bet in this hand until river. LJ raised pre, I called from HJ, OMC in SB called. OMC check called flop. Checked turn. Jammed into two players on river.

Totally forgot about LJ reading this. I can find a fold given the action and the read - OMC isn't jamming into two players without the goods, or close enough to it (e.g. KcQc) that still has you beat.

 

[grebe]

I don't know, we still can have some of his value hands beat... Depending on how really omc he is. He can have straights, other flushes, sets... You said he can have some bluffs here. Even if that number is small, I think it justifies a call. I can see a set of 6s or 8s that wanted to check raise the turn playing this way.

We need to be right 1/3 if the time.

Call.

 

[Zr1]

Me personally im folding pre flop most of the time. Not really sure why we played this hand if we are going to find a fold here. Not saying its great but we win enough that you have to call.

 

[Bradcorn]

Folding suited jack ten in position preflop? Why even play in the game? I would never find a fold before the flop in this instance.

River is all about your read. I don’t think I would fold to less than a pot size shove in the moment but if you are really confident in your read then fold and show OMC to maybe make him think he needs to loosen up.

More reason to bet turn but if OMC has a king of clubs then you were getting coolered anyway.

Me personally im folding pre flop most of the time. Not really sure why we played this hand if we are going to find a fold here. Not saying its great but we win enough that you have to call.

 

[Zr1]

Folding suited jack ten in position preflop? Why even play in the game? I would never find a fold before the flop in this instance.

River is all about your read. I don’t think I would fold to less than a pot size shove in the moment but if you are really confident in your read then fold and show OMC to maybe make him think he needs to loosen up.

More reason to bet turn but if OMC has a king of clubs then you were getting coolered anyway.

U never fold j10 preflop? …straddle..raise and more people to act. we arent close to closing the action here …i guess reading this hand makes me think if were playing j10 suited here hit the flush and then get scared why are we playing it(i know its more complicated but just super simplifying) unless he flashes you his cards and you see you are beat no one has a good enough read to fold this at the river profitably over time

 

[Legend5555]

U never fold j10 preflop? …straddle..raise and more people to act. we arent close to closing the action here …i guess reading this hand makes me think if were playing j10 suited here hit the flush and then get scared why are we playing it(i know its more complicated but just super simplifying) unless he flashes you his cards and you see you are beat no one has a good enough read to fold this at the river profitably over time

I'll finish this up here in a minute. While you are right that playing this closer to the button is generally better, this isn't a game where I need to worry about getting 3 bet squeezed all that often. In those cases, I think you can widen your calling range a bit. If this pot had not been straddled to 10 and LJ still raised to say 15, I'd probably 3 bet this hand a decent amount of the time. Even more so if there was a caller in between and I had position on both of them. Going heads up with this particular player is not my most profitable spot in this game though. I'd rather get some of the weaker players in the pot (like the straddler in this hand). It will make it tougher to play sometimes, but I'm not making the money in this game by trying to beat the LJ in pots.

Plans sometimes have to change. Does it suck we are in a spot where we got there and have to at least consider folding? Sure. But if we use that as a reason to fold hands like this pre, we will be folding way too much. More often we will NOT be in this kind of spot. I'm not going to argue it's straight up bad to fold JTs pre flop here. But we started the hand 77bb effective with the PFR. That's plenty deep enough to peel a flop here. It's not like this is a tourney where we may need to play tighter to protect our stack.

While I normally wouldn't bring this into the strategy equation... I am probably the tightest player in the game. Given that, I think I need to sometimes find calls or overlimps with some hands so as to keep up the image that I'm not playing super tight. I play much better post flop than most of these guys and I can fall back on that a good bit.

Long story short... I don't think you should go folding stuff like JTs in a game with weak players. Especially when you aren't going to get 3 bet much pre.

 

[Legend5555]

Conclusion

My typical $1/$3 $10 rake private game.
Relevant villains:

LJ (stack: $800)- Young aggressive asian kid ~22-25yo. Understands the game, how to structure 3 barrel bluffs, and board textures. However, plays too loose pre especially his isolating raising range against players that are basically never folding. Have seen him 3 barrel with 5h7h when he flopped a gutter, turned a FD, and bricked river.

SB (stack $450) - OMC. Capable of making some occasional bluffs, but it's typically in smallish-medium sized pots. Min 3 bets his big pairs pre. Plays most suited Aces, broadways, and smaller pairs as calls when raised in front of him. Mostly fast plays his strong hands, though gets trappy about 25-35% of the time.

Hero (stack $770).

$10 straddle from UTG.

Folds to LJ who raises to $30.
I'm in HJ with and call.
SB calls.
BB calls.
Straddle completes.

I will sometimes 3 bet JTs, but not this shallow and with so many players still behind. I'd more like to do it in a squeeze type spot when deeper and in the CO or on the Button.

Pot: $150

Flop:

Checks to LJ who bets $75.
HERO calls.
SB calls.
Rest fold.

Pot: $375

Turn:

Checks to hero.
Hero decided to take his equity and check back.

River

OMC in SB rips it for $345.
LJ tanks for 90 seconds and folds.
HERO tanks for 4 minutes and folds.

My read on the OMC is that while he can make some bluffs SOMETIMES, I've never seen it in a pot like this. It's normally in smaller pots and heads up. Here he is blasting into 2 players. I don't think he has any of the straights because I don't think he plays 75 or T7 pre very often, if ever. Likewise he will have nonoe of the two pair, and those would also likely raise the flop. A set would almost have to raise flop given how multiway the pot was. Does that mean he can never call a set on the flop? No. But I also don't think he just jams river with a set into two players when the flush gets there when it looks a lot like I could have a flush draw. He would be more likely to check call or bet something other than all in.

Can he have lower flushes? It would need to be a 9 high flush at best like 97 or 96. 97 might be possible. 96 less so. After that we are looking at 75s. Also a stretch. But if there were ever lower flushes, it would be 75 or 79. 2 combos.

Now lets look at higher flushes. The obvious is KQcc. And he is capable of playing it this way. While he may not know this, check raising KQcc here on the flop is a bit silly as it's hard given his stack size for hands worse than top pair to call. So it would be turning his hand into a semi bluff. He can't really have a Q high flush though except for MAYBE Q9cc. I'd give that like half a chance. Here's the real issue, he can have pretty much all the suited Aces given what i've seen from him. And they would all play this way. A2, A3, A5, A7, A9, AQ. Would he 3 bet AKcc? Probably. I've seen him 3 bet it pre before.

So at this point he has 7.5 combos of better flushes. Maybe he has 1.5 value combos I beat. Can he have any bluffs? If he does, I don't see them. Not into 2 people. So am I good 33% of the time here? I don't think so.

 

[Zr1]

I'll finish this up here in a minute. While you are right that playing this closer to the button is generally better, this isn't a game where I need to worry about getting 3 bet squeezed all that often. In those cases, I think you can widen your calling range a bit. If this pot had not been straddled to 10 and LJ still raised to say 15, I'd probably 3 bet this hand a decent amount of the time. Even more so if there was a caller in between and I had position on both of them. Going heads up with this particular player is not my most profitable spot in this game though. I'd rather get some of the weaker players in the pot (like the straddler in this hand). It will make it tougher to play sometimes, but I'm not making the money in this game by trying to beat the LJ in pots.

Plans sometimes have to change. Does it suck we are in a spot where we got there and have to at least consider folding? Sure. But if we use that as a reason to fold hands like this pre, we will be folding way too much. More often we will NOT be in this kind of spot. I'm not going to argue it's straight up bad to fold JTs pre flop here. But we started the hand 77bb effective with the PFR. That's plenty deep enough to peel a flop here. It's not like this is a tourney where we may need to play tighter to protect our stack.

While I normally wouldn't bring this into the strategy equation... I am probably the tightest player in the game. Given that, I think I need to sometimes find calls or overlimps with some hands so as to keep up the image that I'm not playing super tight. I play much better post flop than most of these guys and I can fall back on that a good bit.

Long story short... I don't think you should go folding stuff like JTs in a game with weak players. Especially when you aren't going to get 3 bet much pre.

With all due respect you saying folding J10s is folding to many hands preflop but you play it and catch your flush and you fold???… We can have our different opinions but that makes no sense to me. The other thing is i didnt say we should fold this hand everytime or that we shouldn’t sometimes 3 bet with this hand or others. i was talking about this particular hand. IMO if you are going to be playing this way you need to be prepared to make some calls on the end that may not be super exciting.

 

[Legend5555]

With all due respect you saying folding J10s is folding to many hands preflop but you play it and catch your flush and you fold???… We can have our different opinions but that makes no sense to me. The other thing is i didnt say we should fold this hand everytime or that we shouldn’t sometimes 3 bet with this hand or others. i was talking about this particular hand. IMO if you are going to be playing this way you need to be prepared to make some calls on the end that may not be super exciting.

Yeah, but not against players where it makes no sense. I don't need to balanced against this guy.

 

[Legend5555]

With all due respect you saying folding J10s is folding to many hands preflop but you play it and catch your flush and you fold???… We can have our different opinions but that makes no sense to me. The other thing is i didnt say we should fold this hand everytime or that we shouldn’t sometimes 3 bet with this hand or others. i was talking about this particular hand. IMO if you are going to be playing this way you need to be prepared to make some calls on the end that may not be super exciting.

Just because we make our hand with it doesn't mean we just ignore everything going on in the hand and say "well I made it, I have to call."

 

[dkersey]

I assume the OMC didn't show after everyone folded (like a true OMC), correct?

 

[Eriks]

With all due respect you saying folding J10s is folding to many hands preflop but you play it and catch your flush and you fold???… We can have our different opinions but that makes no sense to me. The other thing is i didnt say we should fold this hand everytime or that we shouldn’t sometimes 3 bet with this hand or others. i was talking about this particular hand. IMO if you are going to be playing this way you need to be prepared to make some calls on the end that may not be super exciting.

Not every time when he hits his J-high flush will an OMC rip it in against two people.

 

[Legend5555]

I assume the OMC didn't show after everyone folded (like a true OMC), correct?

Of course not. I did play a hand against him 4 days later that made me fairly happy with my flush fold though. Somewhat similar situation in terms of pot size and 3 way action.

Though he was in position in the latter hand and made a pot sized bet into two players on 267TT where in a limped pot it went check, I bet 40%, OMC call, SB call. Check, I bet 80%, OMC call, SB calls. Check, check, OMC pot river, SB tank folds, I snap and lose.