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PAHWM: .25/.50 KJs tough spot? Or easy? (1 Viewer)

Definitely a bet here, way too dangerous to give a free card on this board. I like $25. Jamming into 2 players feels like a recipe for disaster, though you are pretty pot committed at this point at @DrStrange pointed out. I think a raise from V1 is going to be very strong with another player to act behind. He'd be doing that with AJ and JJ which you block, as well as KQd, KJd and KTd if those would be in his loose calling range. I feel like Ax and queens with a gutshot should make up a lot of his range here and he won't be making that move. I feel like you are likely ahead, want to get this down to heads up, and will most likely see a call not a re-raise. If you get the reraise you have to look at your villain read - if my ranging above is right you are behind most of his range, and he is live on the rest. You may have the same hand, but you are getting freerolled on KJd. Unless you feel like villain is opening/calling 3-bets really wide with suited connectors and stuff I think you can lay down to a raise unless he is doing a tiny bet where you are trying to boat up. But even there you could be dealing with a worse boat given his range. Anyway I like a bet. You don't have to risk your whole stack and V1's actions will be very clarifying. Now if both villains call we'll need to reevaluate.
 
Legend5555 said:
I never said I didn't like your plan. I have just called in similar spots. I just provided my reasons for my plan because it didn't seem like you understood why 3 betting an aggressive range can be a good play. There is plenty of training out there that covers these kinds of spots.

If you want to have a real discussion instead of acting personally offended, then what hands would you 3 bet in this spot pre flop?
Click to expand...
I only 3 bet 3 hands - AA KK or suited AK, but only on a loose table. See what 3 betting this does? Your dead money out there claim might be nice and dandy but with more than one caller you can almost guarantee that one of those hands is out there. Add that to you only commenting negatively to my post and using only half of someone else's advise to try to make your point and, well, yeah that is called singling someone out. If you didn't mean to I apologise, but it doesn't change what happened.
 
tabletalker7 said:
I only 3 bet 3 hands - AA KK or suited AK, but only on a loose table. See what 3 betting this does? Your dead money out there claim might be nice and dandy but with more than one caller you can almost guarantee that one of those hands is out there. Add that to you only commenting negatively to my post and using only half of someone else's advise to try to make your point and, well, yeah that is called singling someone out. If you didn't mean to I apologise, but it doesn't change what happened.
Click to expand...
Maybe you happen to play in the softest games in the world, but if you're only 3-betting AA and KK (and AKs at a loose table), any half-competent opponents will pick up on that pattern and play perfectly against you when you have those hands.
 
tabletalker7 said:
I only 3 bet 3 hands - AA KK or suited AK, but only on a loose table. See what 3 betting this does? Your dead money out there claim might be nice and dandy but with more than one caller you can almost guarantee that one of those hands is out there. Add that to you only commenting negatively to my post and using only half of someone else's advise to try to make your point and, well, yeah that is called singling someone out. If you didn't mean to I apologise, but it doesn't change what happened.
Click to expand...
Okay... So either you are trolling or don't study if you only 3 bet those three hands. If first case, no reason to talk to you anymore. If latter, then you obviously aren't open to stepping outside your strategy box. And again no reason to talk to you.
 
Jimulacrum said:
Maybe you happen to play in the softest games in the world, but if you're only 3-betting AA and KK (and AKs at a loose table), any half-competent opponents will pick up on that pattern and play perfectly against you when you have those hands.
Click to expand...

You are leaving a ton of money on the table if you dont have some 3bet bluffs like A5s or 56s. Just sayin'
Not to mention QQ, AQ, KQs, JJ, etc. for value depending on action and position.
 
tabletalker7 said:
I only 3 bet 3 hands - AA KK or suited AK, but only on a loose table. See what 3 betting this does? Your dead money out there claim might be nice and dandy but with more than one caller you can almost guarantee that one of those hands is out there. Add that to you only commenting negatively to my post and using only half of someone else's advise to try to make your point and, well, yeah that is called singling someone out. If you didn't mean to I apologise, but it doesn't change what happened.
Click to expand...
If serious, consider adding at least AKo, AQs, QQ, JJ along with some decent bluffing hands such as suited broadways or smaller suited connectors, or you will be very easy to play against
 
Legend5555 said:
There are some winning players from reputable training sites that would certainly advocate for a 3 bet with KQs and even QJs. Not that's it's something they would do 100% of the time, but I don't think it's a play that you should never do. There is a good amount of dead money out there.

3 bet squeezing is a very strong play that can result in a lot of free wins.
Click to expand...
100% agreed with what I quoted above, but I also adjust my 3-bet frequency a lot based on the table. In a game like this with loose, sticky players, I tend to 3-bet a smaller, tighter range.

I've just found that the pots I pick up with increased 3-betting in this type of game are not worth the tough decisions when I get into big pots with marginal hands.
 
Schmendr1ck said:
100% agreed with what I quoted above, but I also adjust my 3-bet frequency a lot based on the table. In a game like this with loose, sticky players, I tend to 3-bet a smaller, tighter range.

I've just found that the pots I pick up with increased 3-betting in this type of game are not worth the tough decisions when I get into big pots with marginal hands.
Click to expand...
That's a fair point. I think you can also make an argument that if they are sticky with marginal hands, then increasing your 3 bet% with more stuff like suited broadway can (not always) be a good thing too when you are in position.

Anytime you 3 bet a less than premium hand, it can lead to some tough spots. But that's okay if your willing to play more marginal spots.
 
Continued

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.
HERO raises to $12.
VILLAIN 1 tanks and calls.
UTG+3 folds.
VILLAIN 2 calls fairly quickly.

Pot: $38.75
Eff stack: $88
Flop: :kc::jd::ad:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $19.50.
VILLAIN 1 thinks for a bit and calls.
VILLAIN 2 calls, but more quickly than V1.

Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
Turn: :kc::jd::ad::8c:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
 
Unless someone is holding exactly QdTd I don’t see how they wouldn’t shove on the flop with a hand better than ours: AA/KK - can’t (shouldn’t?) have, AK - shove, JJ - shove, AJ - possibly. I know I said I don’t wanna play for stacks but I think I’ll shove this turn. Looks a lot like villain 1 has some kind of Ax and villain 2 has a fd or QdTd :nailbite:
 
Legend5555 said:
Continued

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.
HERO raises to $12.
VILLAIN 1 tanks and calls.
UTG+3 folds.
VILLAIN 2 calls fairly quickly.

Pot: $38.75
Eff stack: $88
Flop: :kc::jd::ad:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $19.50.
VILLAIN 1 thinks for a bit and calls.
VILLAIN 2 calls, but more quickly than V1.

Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
Turn: :kc::jd::ad::8c:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
Click to expand...
I actually really like your play up to this point, it’s similar to the line I would’ve taken. Also this is one of the few times I’m not totally onboard with the good doctor’s strategy.

Preflop, I’m never ever folding KJs to a single 4x raise, especially on the button, though I think a 3b is a better choice than calling and taking a flop 4+ ways. I probably size my 3b to $10, it’s going to have the same effect as $12, but not bloat the pot quite as much.

We get a flop that strongly favors our 3b range, I think it’s a must bet - I’m c betting ~1/3 pot on a lot of flops that hit my range, so I continue for $13-15 and probably fold to a jam. That leaves us with ~ 3/4 pot bet to get in on a clean turn.

The 8 is about as clean a card as you can hope for, and given that neither villain raised the flop, I think we’re good here a lot of the time unless they have :qd::td:, so we have to just jam that turn. If they have a slow played AJ so be it, and pray for a non-diamond, Q or T on the river. If we get unlucky, reload and carry on.
 
I dont know - with two FDs and the SD on the board that's a LOT of bad rivers - say 22 as :jc: and :kd: boat hero up. EDIT: not perfect but 8 clubs + 8 diamonds + 3 T + 3 Q = 22 (assuming that at least one T or Q is out there).

So with 46 cards we cant see, 22 of them are possibly bad for us. I dont want to be putting more money in here especially with 2 callers. I think most non-paired hands that call 3bets are suited. Hero's hand blocks a lot of those spades.

Is anyone folding to a jam here with a FD? I dont think so. We're probably ahead but we're getting at least one caller maybe two = high variance IMHO.

I check. I do have position after all and am closing the action.
 
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I'm jamming here. As said previously you would have heard from a big hand or monster draw from villain on the flop so safe to assume you are ahead. The call from V2 is curious. The quick call makes me feel like he is on a draw and feeling priced in by V1 coming along. He could be slow playing a monster but a straight would likely have raised already on the flop, with two flush draws he may have even donk jammed the turn to protect. QTd he may be slow playing but it's one combo and I think he would make a slower decision. The quick call feels very much like a draw. With stacks now pretty shallow its pretty clearly a jam IMO.
 
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Legend5555 said:
That's a fair point. I think you can also make an argument that if they are sticky with marginal hands, then increasing your 3 bet% with more stuff like suited broadway can (not always) be a good thing too when you are in position.

Anytime you 3 bet a less than premium hand, it can lead to some tough spots. But that's okay if your willing to play more marginal spots.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

To be honest, I probably do it both ways depending on the circumstances. In some games with loose, sticky players, I'll play a pretty tight 3-bet range and look for fat value spots. I know that I lose value in exchange for reducing variance when I do this.

Other times, I will open up a lot - still making sure that my 3-betting range is tighter than their 3-bet calling range, of course. :D
 
Legend5555 said:
Continued

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.
HERO raises to $12.
VILLAIN 1 tanks and calls.
UTG+3 folds.
VILLAIN 2 calls fairly quickly.

Pot: $38.75
Eff stack: $88
Flop: :kc::jd::ad:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $19.50.
VILLAIN 1 thinks for a bit and calls.
VILLAIN 2 calls, but more quickly than V1.

Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
Turn: :kc::jd::ad::8c:

Checks to HERO.

HERO?
Click to expand...
1611202780553.png
 
Late to the party. I like how it's been played so far. I think all 3 options run close preflop, I probably flat or fold more than I 3-bet personally, but all decisions are table-dependent in this part of my range.

I think betting the flop is pretty obvious. Checking sucks because free pull for anyone with a gutshot. I like the bet and the sizing hero used, though I could even argue for going a little bigger. I think the best approach to sizing is to target the amount a villain can call with AQ, AT, or Ax, maybe KQ if lucky. To that end 20-25 seems reasonable from a distance. Also think about trying to get the rest of the stack in on a safe turn. (Namely, anything that doesn't fill a straight, or pairs the ace.) It's hard to imagine being against AA, KK, JJ, or AK. If you are behind, AJ and QT seem to be the likely culprits. This is the reason I don't like the shove either at 2x pot. That feels like you are turning this hand into a bluff, and the only reasonable hand we could make villain lay down is AJ. You will only get called by the straight, and lose value from the weaker holdings that could call the smaller amount. Otherwise we want value from the bit of the villains' range we lead.

On the turn, I think it's as safe as can be. I like the shove much better here at 70% of pot. You might still get a crying call from AX, otherwise, still protecting yourself against gutshot hands that get here and charging full price to flush draws.
 
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As played, shove the turn. You've built up a pot larger than your stack, and neither opponent has done anything to indicate that you're beat. You need to protect your stake in the pot now. If you're behind, those are the breaks (and you may still have outs).

Welcome to playing KJs in a 3-bet pot.
 
boltonguy said:
Is anyone folding to a jam here with a FD? I dont think so. We're probably ahead but we're getting at least one caller maybe two = high variance IMHO.

I check. I do have position after all and am closing the action.
Click to expand...

My only problem with this line of thinking is you can't get value from a busted flush draw on the river. Also with :ac: on the board, how many flush draws in clubs does either villian really have? They would have to have called with second pair or maybe have QT (in which case you are already screwed.)

I think with diamonds be careful, especially villian 2 may be in there with middling diamonds having called twice pre. I don't see middling clubs getting past this flop.

The one argument I could make for checking behind on the turn is if makes it easier for villian to call with unimproved one pair hands on the river. But personally villian have more callable hands that hero leads on the turn, get the money in now!
 
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Continued...

Here is where things get a little interesting. After getting called by both, I'm a little shocked. From a solid play standpoint, I can't imagine what V2 is calling with that wouldn't just jam flop. And given V1's play, I'm a little worried he could just be seriously underrepping a hand. I've run into a gross amount of people that underplay hands and I end up value owning myself. The number of times I've seen various people limp AK or just call a raise with AK pre is quite surprising to me. And so I am thinking it's possible that V1 could have AK, AJ, or QT. V2, no idea as he shouldn't be calling with just an A, and most flush draws (which are likely combo draws here) I would think should jam. So I use some time and activate the bank. But I've already moved the slider to all in while thinking as all-in and pray is the pretty obvious move given how this hand has played out.

Then the 5yo enters the room when he is supposed to be in bed to ask me something nonsensical. I'm playing on my iPad in my bed and have 50 seconds still on the clock. I put the iPad down for a sec to talk sense into my kid (impossible), and he leaves upset that I told him to go back to bed. I grab the iPad awkwardly as it slips and hit check without realizing it. And we are off to the river with me being more than a little annoyed.

9 handed
$100 effective
.25/.50 NLHE

HERO is on the button with :ks: :js:.

VILLAIN 1 (UTG+2) raises $2.
UTG+3 calls.
VILLAIN 2 (CO) calls.
HERO raises to $12.
VILLAIN 1 tanks and calls.
UTG+3 folds.
VILLAIN 2 calls fairly quickly.

Pot: $38.75
Eff stack: $88
Flop: :kc::jd::ad:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $19.50.
VILLAIN 1 thinks for a bit and calls.
VILLAIN 2 calls, but more quickly than V1.

Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
Turn: :kc::jd::ad::8c:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks accidentally.

Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
River: :kc::jd::ad::8c::4h:

VILLAIN 1 bets $10.
VILLAIN 2 tanks and folds.

HERO?
 
Jesus, that’s annoying!

On the river I would think we beat most of his block betting range, let’s give him AQ/AT/Axs, KQdd/KTdd (if he can play those this passively). I guess also some AJ hands. Question is, will he call a shove? Do you think he will try to put you on a hand or is he mostly concerned with the absolute strength of his own hand? Because if you shove the river it doesn’t really make any sense and you could get looked up light, if he pays attention that is.
 
Legend5555 said:
Pot: $97.25
Eff stack: $68.50
River: :kc::jd::ad::8c::4h:

VILLAIN 1 bets $10.
VILLAIN 2 tanks and folds.

HERO?
Click to expand...

Oh man so you mis-clicked on the turn and now villian is leading into you on the river.

You have definitely underrepped your hand by "checking" the turn. But I see less reason to shove the river since hands that were flush draws or straight draws on the turn can't really call the river now. If you jam over the $10 you are really targeting AQ or AT specifically, but you are probably going to be called by Aces-up or better.

I think the decisions close, but not being able to extract value from flush draws really tips this to a call for me on the river, even though I liked the shove on the turn.
 
JustinInMN said:
Oh man so you mis-clicked on the turn and now villian is leading into you on the river.

You have definitely underrepped your hand by "checking" the turn. But I see less reason to shove the river since hands that were flush draws or straight draws on the turn can't really call the river now. If you jam over the $10 you are really targeting AQ or AT specifically, but you are probably going to be called by Aces-up or better.

I think the decisions close, but not being able to extract value from flush draws really tips this to a call for me on the river, even though I liked the shove on the turn.
Click to expand...

I agree!
 

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