PAHWM: 5-Card PLO (high only) (2 Viewers)

[Saoliver]

@Rhodeman77 @Hornet @Anthony Martino

We're playing 5-card PLO, 4 handed. Blinds are 0.10/0.20/0.40. Hero is on the button. PLO is not hero's strong suit, but he feels more comfortable here than in Big O. But definitely still a weak player here.

Stack sizes:

SB - $38.49
BB - $188.49
Straddle - $55.05
Button (hero) - $302.92

Preflop:

Hero looks down at and calls the 0.40.
SB calls
BB raises to $2.00
Everyone calls

Flop $8.00:



SB - check
BB - check
Straddle - check
Hero - ?

 

[Hornet]

I check back. I don’t want to bloat the pot, particularly in light of the fact that we are playing deep stacked and Hero is not particularly comfortable with the game. Plus, there are several turn cards you don’t like. I would try to keep the pot a manageable size and take a free card.

 

[Josh Kifer]

No play. No have to make these types of choices.

 

[Saoliver]

I check back. I don’t want to bloat the pot, particularly in light of the fact that we are playing deep stacked and Hero is not particularly comfortable with the game. Plus, there are several turn cards you don’t like. I would try to keep the pot a manageable size and take a free card.

Was the preflop call of $2.00 ok here? Hero's thinking is take a flop in position with a mediocre hand, especially shorthanded.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Generally in PLO high when you are hunting for sets you want to shoot for a pair of 7's or better.

This particular hand is crippled a bit preflop because you have gaps between your cards to make straights, your flush draws are very low and the pair of 5's aren't doing you any favors

So generally this is a fold preflop.

As played, when everyone checks, let's narrow the field. We most likely have the best hand, and as stated there aren't a ton of turn cards we get excited about.

Bet pot here, if someone comes along, they will likely check the turn. Depending on the turn card, we can then continue our aggression (say a duece comes off) or check behind and take a free river card. Our positional advantage here is huge

Now, if we pot on the flop and get check-raised, it's ok to let it go

 

[detroitdad]

check. Its a shitty hand with a shitty re draw

 

[Hornet]

Personally I don’t mind playing that hand shorthanded in position, but since you are describing yourself as a weak player, you can’t go wrong by folding this. You have two mediocre pairs, a couple of potential low flush draws, and some straight connections. Unless you absolutely crush the flop, you can get yourself into trouble with this.

 

[joker80]

Fold pre

I check here

 

[mipevi]

Pre I think stealing would be a fun line, hopefully get the pot HU if not win the blinds outright. Fold if you expect people to insist on seeing a flop.

Even if no one has a straight on the flop (which they very well could, you block nothing), they can have a bunch of strong draws to reraise with. And someone can certainly have TTxxx and call you... I recommend checking back and turning the

 

[Rhodeman77]

I also like a check with this hand on the flop. Lets play pot control. We are under repping a decent hand and if the turn is clean we can bet pot. Betting here Hero will get called by a very wide range of hands. Also there are 2 pretty short stacks in the hand and 1 other deep stack. betting here gets up pot committed against the short stacks and could get us in a strange spot against the other deep stack. Lets see a turn and what everyone does in front of us.

 

[DrStrange]

Somehow I get the impression this is a big O hand, not a PLO hand.

Very short handed play is somewhat different than a full ring. You don't quite have to hold the nuts if the bets get big . . .

preflop is a fold for me. I get Hero has position, but this hand is often going to be looking for trouble. If the bets get big, hero's flushes are junk and his sets are often 2nd or 3rd set.

Hero does pretty well on the flop and then everyone checks to him. I'd love to have some reads and table norms. But I don't have them. I think Hero should bet here. Hero might win outright. Even if Hero gets called, there is some chance he will clean up some of his runner-runner outs and limit the risk of an overcard making a bigger set. I look at this as a bet/fold situation - if hero get's check raised, I am inclined to fold.

By the way, if the table norms permit it, I think Hero can get by with a $5 bet vs an $8 full pot sized bet. Hero does not want to play a big pot with this hand. He has all sorts of ways to get into trouble, so a smaller pot is going to be to his advantage.

DrStrange

PS I'd be a lot more careful if this wasn't a short handed table. four max gives Hero a lot more "elbow room".

 

[Saoliver]

I'd love to have some reads and table norms. But I don't have them.

Hero doesn't have much of a read on the SB or BB opponents. He hasn't played much with them, but has played a bunch of sessions with the Straddle. Hero considers him a solid player, who prefers to short-buy and play for smaller pots, but not afraid to get aggressive with nutty draws.

 

[Saoliver]

Seems that the consensus was to fold pre. Makes sense.

Hero checked the flop. Seems there was not consensus here though.

Stack sizes:

SB - $38.49
BB - $188.49
Straddle - $55.05
Button (hero) - $302.92

Preflop:

Hero looks down at and calls the 0.40.
SB calls
BB raises to $2.00
Everyone calls

Flop $8.00:



SB - check
BB - check
Straddle - check
Hero - check

Turn $8.00:



SB - Bet $4.00
BB - call
Straddle - call
Hero - ?

 

[Moxie Mike]

On this flop, the only player I'm leery of getting C/Red by is the SB... who probably instinctively checked to the raiser.

I'm no PLO expert but here's my take on the BB:

The BB could have checked back pre and taken the free flop - but instead they potted it knowing in all likelihood they were getting 3 callers. BB wanted to build a pot in case the flop hits him hard.

Now when checked to, they declined to c-bet this flop. In my experience, preflop openers rarely check a made hand here. BB fears the straight here against 3 opponents and doesn't want to bloat the pot OOP (any more than they already have).

This flop in all likelihood completely missed the BB - save for maybe a gutshot SD or some backdoor FDs. I suspect BB holds something like a fistful of broadway cards with at least one suited ace and an overpair. This is at least a little bit supported by the fact that you have none of that blocked with any of your 5 hole cards.

You have the 4th nut in a 4-handed game and no one has shown any interest in this flop including the PF raiser. I vote to bet full pot when checked to - essentially repping the straight and presenting the appearance that HERO wants to narrow the field. You can easily release if CRed however I find that scenario somewhat unlikely given the BB's and the CO's passivity.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Hero is most likely behind a weak (10 or possibly J high?) straight. Nut straight would bet pot to get value and for protection. Weaker straight wants to bet as little as possible to find out if the nut straight is out there.

So Hero could pot it to rep the nut straight and has good chance of taking it down, or just call. Hero is getting a good price to call for his boat.

 

[Beakertwang]

Fold. Pretty much everything from JQ to 56 has you beat, plus you only have 8 outs to a 2nd best boat, and that’s assuming TT or some 2 pair isn’t in play.

 

[Beakertwang]

By the way, was I in this hand?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Fold the turn. Even if we manage to boat on the river there is no guarantee it will be good. A player holding top set could've checked the flop fearing the straight, for instance

Whatever the case, we are most certainly behind here, and our outs may not all be clean

 

[mipevi]

Call turn, be willing to fold rivers.

 

[Saoliver]

By the way, was I in this hand?

You were the Straddle.

 

[Saoliver]

Fold the turn. Even if we manage to boat on the river there is no guarantee it will be good. A player holding top set could've checked the flop fearing the straight, for instance

Whatever the case, we are most certainly behind here, and our outs may not all be clean

Fold, even with an open ended straight flush draw?

 

[Moxie Mike]

Seems that the consensus was to fold pre. Makes sense.

Hero checked the flop. Seems there was not consensus here though.

Stack sizes:

SB - $38.49
BB - $188.49
Straddle - $55.05
Button (hero) - $302.92

Preflop:

Hero looks down at and calls the 0.40.
SB calls
BB raises to $2.00
Everyone calls

Flop $8.00:



SB - check
BB - check
Straddle - check
Hero - check

Turn $8.00:



SB - Bet $4.00
BB - call
Straddle - call
Hero - ?

So you now have the second set and an OESFD.

There are now so many straight combos out there I can't even count them all. No one really seems all that concerned with protecting the nuts... so I suspect QJ isn't in anyone's hand unless you're up against opponents who like to get to the river before they do any serious betting.

So you have 3 clean outs to the stone cold nuts. Against 3 opponents, chances are your FD is no good but holding 3 blockers to higher flushes is advantageous in it's own way.

You also have 8 more non-nut outs (3 10s, 2 sevens and 3 eights) that if they hit aren't a lot to get excited about.

So it's $4 to win $20 plus any implied odds. I would call and see what the river brings. If you make the SF you can extract value from the higher flushes in the field, if you make quads you can get paid by any FHs. If you make a FH yourself your hand is basically a bluff-catcher and little else.

So I'd call the $4 closing the action. On the river I'd probably pay off any reasonable bet assuming I improve to a FH. Fold to any aggression unimproved.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Fold, even with an open ended straight flush draw?

My bad, missed that. Well, we close the action on the turn and everyone has to act on the river before us, I'm ok with a call and evaluate river with the extra draw

 

[detroitdad]

Im calling all day long here. Of course, i suck, so that is probably the wrong play

 

[Beakertwang]

I also missed the OESFD. I suppose if I were 800BB deep, and it was 4 to win 20, I’d call for the chance for a big payday. But you only have 3 outs to the nuts.

 

[Hornet]

I call and see what the river brings.

 

[detroitdad]

I call and see what the river brings.

The Pro has spoken!

 

[Beakertwang]

You were the Straddle.

Gotcha. I figured it was a hand from last night, but I don’t remember it. Your description sounded a lot like me, except I’m not so sure about the “solid player” part yet.

 

[Frogzilla]

You have 3 outs to nut up (7%). The pot is $20 and you have another $15 in implied odds, so about $2.

A ten is no good for you, but the non spade 8s and the two 7s usually are. Not as much implied odds here. $20 ~80% of time. Another $1.20 or so.

I think the $4 call probably loses a little money but not that much. Call

 

[Rhodeman77]

The argument for a raise is pretty strong. Good chance it cleans up flush draw outs. Could get a weak straight to fold, and if not, and Hero ends up heads up he probably will have more outs with the flush draw.

SB is the only that should have a good straight. BB and Straddle only calling should have 2 pair, weaker set, flush draw, low straight etc

A small sized raise ($15 total) here that if SB does shove will likely get folds from the other 2 players since Hero could then 4 bet and trap BB (other big stack). BB will be worried about risking his stack here and should be folding if SB shoves.

Hero’s hand plays much better heads up and making a small raise could get that to happen. Worst case is that everyone calls the extra $11. Which isn’t that bad either. There is a good chance the nuts will change on the river and if anyone bets it they will almost certainly have it.