PAHWM: Pocket 10's OTB (2 Viewers)

[RagingAZN]

This is a spot where I have trouble with. With AA-QQ it’s an easy 4! I think and with the smaller pairs we can setmine but it’s these middling pairs that I find hard to play in this spot. Being 400 BB deep makes this a bit tougher too.

This hand is from my fortnightly 50c/50c uncapped NLHE game. Typical mix of a few sharks, donkeys and all in between.

Villain 1 is one of the better ones at my game, TAG and doesn’t get out of line too much.

Villain 2 is a calling station, hardly ever folds preflop and minraises on the flop with two pair or better. Will call with any piece or backdoor draw on the flop.

Hero is also one of the better ones at this game as well, TAG image (probably more on the NIT side to be fair).

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero…?

 

[krafticus]

Time to set mine. Call and complete the action. Re-evaluate on the flop, but most likely folding if there is multiple bets/calls in front of us

 

[dinosaur]

Call or raise to $45.

Calling keeps the pot under control. And you can play the flop.

Raising might get the bb out if he was just playing you light. And if he calls, then that should shrink his range at least. The utg station, well hopefully he misses. But if they call, go into a flop cautiously.

 

[JMC9389]

I like a raise here to $30 or $35. This sucks to play multiways even in position.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

If your image is TAG or even a nit, Im raising. Villain 1 is a better player and would be raising the button pretty wide; test that range. If he comes over the top I can fold, but I'd like to test him a bit.

 

[KHarp1]

Play'em like aces, raise to $35-$45.

 

[Jimulacrum]

First, the case against folding:

• Folding here would be silly, durf.

Next, the case for calling with the intention of set-mining:

• You're getting great stack odds on the call, from V1 alone.
• V2 calling improves your expectation from getting paid off with a set.
• You have good position that you can use to set up advantageous lines and protect yourself regardless of how the rest of the hand goes.
• Flatting leaves your range more open; it will be harder for your opponents to deduce your hand in later rounds.

Finally, the case against reraising:

• A second player calling increases the chances that there's a bigger pair for you to run into.
• Reraising nerfs your positional advantage by setting up a lower stack-to-pot ratio.
• A reraise will leave you more likely to get pot-committed, in a situation where you should only seek to get pot-committed when you improve to a set or better.
• All you really have is a middle pair.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Any chance this gets wrapped up by New Years?

 

[RagingAZN]

Thanks for all the replies so far. Seems like its split between 4! and calling. I think on another night, I could have 4! but tonight I went with the…

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero calls for $10 total. Pot is $30.

Flop is .

V1 bets $16.
V2 calls.

Hero…?

 

[RagingAZN]

Any chance this gets wrapped up by New Years?

 

[Frogzilla]

Flop can’t fold. I lean call…raise has some merit given it’s got a lot of overs you are happy to deny equity to, but you also have to toss your own equity in the muck if they 3! since you double block T9.
Maybe low freq raise to $60 but mostly call

 

[Legend5555]

Preflop is fine. If stacks were deeper, you could argue for a 4 bet to pick up the dead money. But a lot of response to the 4 bet will be jam or fold. Jam is really bad for us. So just call, even though multiway, seems fine.

On flop, pretty standard just call followed by folding to any further aggression by either player unless we turn a set.

Bet from V1 is a weird sizing for a multiway pot. Raising would make sense against smaller sizing and heads up. With V2 calling, I think you can also make an argument to just fold. V1 is repping an over pair, and V2 by limp calling a 3 bet is repping a pair as well. There is only one pair we are really beating on this board, which is 99.

At best, V1 is getting really splashy and betting over cards (which he shouldn't really do given this board and 2 callers), and V2 has 56 ot T9 (and T9 is very unlikely given we have TT). And neither can be betting/calling with flush draws since there aren't any.

No matter what, our prospects for winning this hand seem slim unless it starts checking down.

 

[RagingAZN]

V1 knows that my range is capped here so he probably puts me on the exact hand I have and is trying to bet me off that but he also knows that V2 is a calling station so I don’t think he’s betting here with complete air.

I have no idea what V2 has (could be anything from Q2o to K7s to 56o or could even just be some big overcards like QJs). I put V1 on either a big pair or big overcards so can’t fold here just yet.

I take a min or two to think before making the call.

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero calls for $10 total. Pot is $30.

Flop is .

V1 bets $16.
V2 calls.

Hero calls for $16 total. Pot is now $78.

Turn is .

V1 bets $40.
V2 calls $40.

Hero…?

 

[Legend5555]

V1 knows that my range is capped here so he probably puts me on the exact hand I have and is trying to bet me off that but he also knows that V2 is a calling station so I don’t think he’s betting here with complete air.

I have no idea what V2 has (could be anything from Q2o to K7s to 56o or could even just be some big overcards like QJs). I put V1 on either a big pair or big overcards so can’t fold here just yet.

I take a min or two to think before making the call.

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero calls for $10 total. Pot is $30.

Flop is .

V1 bets $16.
V2 calls.

Hero calls for $16 total. Pot is now $78.

Turn is .

V1 bets $40.
V2 calls $40.

Hero…?

Easy fold. What do you think you are beating here between 2 players, one that 3 bet pre, and another that limp called a 3 bet?

 

[Frogzilla]

V1 knows that my range is capped here so he probably puts me on the exact hand I have and is trying to bet me off that but he also knows that V2 is a calling station so I don’t think he’s betting here with complete air.

I have no idea what V2 has (could be anything from Q2o to K7s to 56o or could even just be some big overcards like QJs). I put V1 on either a big pair or big overcards so can’t fold here just yet.

I take a min or two to think before making the call.

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero calls for $10 total. Pot is $30.

Flop is .

V1 bets $16.
V2 calls.

Hero calls for $16 total. Pot is now $78.

Turn is .

V1 bets $40.
V2 calls $40.

Hero…?

Wait why range capped on flop? Don’t you have 77 and 88 that take that line pre?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Fold.

V1 betting into 2 players again on the turn, expecting to get called, is going to be stronger than tens far more often than it will be weaker.

(V2 could go either way, but his presence is an additional risk factor.)

 

[RagingAZN]

Yup, after V1 bets again and V2 calls, I’m outta there in a flash. In hindsight, it was a pretty easy hand to play but I’m wondering whether a fold is the best option on the flop.

We can’t really improve (unless we hit a 2-outer) so is folding the best option on the flop (considering the action) instead of saying “well we can’t just fold on the flop because we have an overpair.” Or is that just too nitty?

I would imagine its these type of calls that have a huge effect on your winrate.

Villain 1 ($200 effective) is in the BB.
Villain 2 ($100 effective) is UTG and calls 50c.
CO ($100 effective) calls 50c.

Hero ($200 effective) is OTB with and raises to $2.50.

SB folds.

Villain 1 makes it $10.
Villain 2 calls.
CO folds.

Hero calls for $10 total. Pot is $30.

Flop is .

V1 bets $16.
V2 calls.

Hero calls for $16 total. Pot is now $78.

Turn is .

V1 bets $40.
V2 calls $40.

Hero folds.

River is .

V1 puts V2 all in and shows two black Aces. V2 mucks.

Wait why range capped on flop? Don’t you have 77 and 88 that take that line pre?

Yes you are correct here. I am doing a bit of study on capped and uncapped ranges so have applied it wrongly in this instance it seems.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Calling the 16 on the flop is fine. It's a smallish bet, and a lot more can still happen with your pair of tens.

Even if you don't improve, check-check on the turn might indicate you're ahead. Or, of course, you could spike a set.

 

[JMC9389]

Calling the 16 on the flop is fine. It's a smallish bet, and a lot more can still happen with your pair of tens.

Even if you don't improve, check-check on the turn might indicate you're ahead. Or, of course, you could spike a set.

$16 is a great price to call. Lots of cards that hero would like that can still come up.

 

[Legend5555]

Yes you are correct here. I am doing a bit of study on capped and uncapped ranges so have applied it wrongly in this instance it seems.

You are capped in that you can't have QQ-AA or AK because presumably you'd 4 bet those of pre. On the flop though, V1 is at a nut disadvantage in that he can't have any sets on this board. So he at best has an overpair. That does still give him a big overall range advantage though. He has the highest equity among the 3 players, he just can't have a nut hand. But at an spr of just 3 to 1 with the shorter stack, him being at a nut disadvantage isn't a big deal.

 

[Taghkanic]

I recently watched a hand history from a commentator I like, where the hero had TT in a similar position.

Couple of things I picked up:

* There’s going to be at least one overcard on the flop nearly 2/3rds of the time. So you have to think preflop about how you’re going to handle that likelihood.

* For the reason above, getting it heads up pre is even more valuable than usual.

* It’s correspondingly rare for the flop to be all undercards, less than 1/4 of the time… The commentator advised overbetting these flops, FWIW.

Getting another rainbow undercard (paired 2s) on the turn normally would be very good for TT. Just bad luck that someone had an overpair. And that two villains were both still showing strong interest. Not much to do but get away from it and lose as little as possible.