PAHWM: home game, NLHE round (3 Viewers)

[RagingAZN]

Well, now what? Hero flatted flop and everyone is in. This is the tricky part about these strategy threads. If you don't fold pre, you are accepting you are going to take the loss when you run into QQ+ here. So to me calling is consistent with that. If you fold here, you are kind of making the point for folding this pre as there are very few runouts this clean for KQ.

This this this!

However, as played I'm folding (I'm Team Fold PF though!) because this bet from CO is pretty strong. He's got to get through two players who I'm assuming he also understands are reasonably solid. When both of us call on a dry flop like that, he has to realise that we have something.

We have to worry about the TAG being behind us, for him to check call on a dry flop after we call means he can definitely beat KQ at a minimum.

 

[suchj0sh]

We have to worry about the TAG being behind us, for him to check call on a dry flop after we call means he can definitely beat KQ at a minimum.

They are so deep. UTG+2 can def call flop closing the action with a pocket pair less than queens hoping to hit a set.

 

[MrCatPants]

This this this!

However, as played I'm folding (I'm Team Fold PF though!) because this bet from CO is pretty strong. He's got to get through two players who I'm assuming he also understands are reasonably solid. When both of us call on a dry flop like that, he has to realise that we have something.

We have to worry about the TAG being behind us, for him to check call on a dry flop after we call means he can definitely beat KQ at a minimum.

UTG+2 100% for sure knows about COs late night spew tendencies also, so i wouldnt eliminate hand like qjs, 67s, and middle pairs from his flop calling range.

 

[Coyote]

CO is drawing and bullying.
At least a pot-sized re-raise here (I 'd say all-in if you were not that deep)

 

[JustinInMN]

CO is drawing and bullying.
At least a pot-sized re-raise here (I 'd say all-in if you were not that deep)

I just don't see a real obvious draw on this board here. (Maybe someone is getting too stubborn with AK for a pair draw?)

If anyone has less than KQ here, they are just playing to bluff catch with mid pocket pairs. I guess I don't think of this sort of two outer as a draw.

 

[MrCatPants]

Continuing. Hero tanks for a while, does some visual looking over of UTG+2 and CO for any obvious tells. CO zips up further. UTG+2 doesn't move. With the spade turn, certain combos like AK/AJ/AT/A-wheelcard of spades could all play this way, but that's very specific combos. QJs+ and maybe getting spewy with some middle pocket pairs or super specific hands hands like 76s or 98s that now smashed the turn. I verbalize at one point that I'm sorry for the wait, and that it's not about this street but the next one. Eventually, with the zip up, I settle on overweighting 'spewy', and this is what i 'asked for' when calling the 3-bet anyway, so I call.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at and CALLS
Hero has huge sigh of relief as UTG+2 CALLS

Pot is 32 BB

Flop slams down as

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 10 BB
Hero CALLS 10 BB
UTG+2 CALLS 10 BB

CO pulls zip up hoodie up so it covers his mouth.

Pot is 62 BB

Turn brings

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 50 BB
Hero CALLS 50 BB

UTG+2 TANKS. And I mean tanks. Like, hero tanked for 3 minutes or so. This goes on for 5, but no one calls clock. UTG+2 says late in the tank "this makes no sense, what you are doing (CO) makes no sense, and what you are doing (Hero) makes even less sense". Then is quiet for a while, then reluctantly folds.

Pot is 162 BB

River brings

CO thinks for about three seconds, and shoves in a barrel (BETS 200 BB)

Action on hero.

 

[JustinInMN]

River brings

CO thinks for about three seconds, and shoves in a barrel (BETS 200 BB)

Action on hero.

I guess the only thing that matters is if you think CO can 3-barrel here with less than KQ.

This bet is polarizing, anything less than KQ he is turning into a bluff from his perspective.

I guess if you want to find a fold that's the reason.

But at the same time, hero played this preflop with some expectations that even though the villains are TAGs, there is enough non-qq+ in both villians ranges to play KQ against two raises in the first place, so again, calling here is consistent with that assumption.

Guess I am trying to have it both ways here. The catch-22 here is you can take the data point that villain has no 3 barrel bluffs and fold, but then that makes hero exploitable if he is going to fold this hand on a favorable board. Hero is probably in the middle of his range here, depending on what hero would do with JJ and TT on the turn.

But I feel we played this to bluff catch since we got a piece of the flop, we may as well see it through and call. Even if we don't win this one, we expect to win enough, or we should be folding this preflop.

 

[RagingAZN]

I agree above with @JustinInMN that as played, this is probably a call. Pairing the 2 means now that we have counterfeited one of the hands he could have like 76s.

The overbet is very polarising indeed.

Does villain have something like 72o?!

 

[warma]

I agree with UTG+2.

A LAG with flushes out of the way, I suspect you’re ahead, originally wondering if they were chasing a flush. That’s not a bet that wants a call. So I’d call.

 

[ChipMonster]

Does villain have something like 72o?!

That’s what I’m wondering and if he just went full maniac.

 

[suchj0sh]

Think we have to bluff catch on this river. Fast action is kind of weak, unless you think he is leveling you.

Really wonder what UTG+2 could’ve folded. Such a long tank he might have folded AQ .

 

[JustinInMN]

Really wonder what UTG+2 could’ve folded. Such a long tank he might have folded AQ .

UTG+2 folding AQ (And maybe KQ for that matter) crossed my mind. A card funeral for AK makes some sense too given the remarks. Figures he is blocking AA and KK and doesn't know why CO is going so strong.

 

[RagingAZN]

@MrCatPants

 

[MrCatPants]

@MrCatPants

Im giving each street like half a day!

 

[Highli99]

A card funeral for AK makes some sense too given the remarks.

Yeah these are tilting. Card funerals should be banned in multiway pots and frankly limited in all but the biggest spots. I'm not saying people can't have time doentough decisions, I am saying its rude to drag out actions that have already been decided. We know you're folding Carl lets go.

In this case Hero should call and understand he loses some of the time. We didn't come this far to give up.

 

[ChipMonster]

 

[warma]

Im giving each street like half a day!

Is that the standard? I thought it was a day. Oops

 

[MrCatPants]

Is that the standard? I thought it was a day. Oops

I mean i can give it a day. But the pitchforks are already coming out.

 

[springbox]

I mean i can give it a day. But the pitchforks are already coming out.

 

[MrCatPants]

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at and CALLS
Hero has huge sigh of relief as UTG+2 CALLS

Pot is 32 BB

Flop slams down as

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 10 BB
Hero CALLS 10 BB
UTG+2 CALLS 10 BB

CO pulls zip up hoodie up so it covers his mouth.

Pot is 62 BB

Turn brings

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 50 BB
Hero CALLS 50 BB

UTG+2 TANKS. And I mean tanks. Like, hero tanked for 3 minutes or so. This goes on for 5, but no one calls clock. UTG+2 says late in the tank "this makes no sense, what you are doing (CO) makes no sense, and what you are doing (Hero) makes even less sense". Then is quiet for a while, then reluctantly folds.

Pot is 162 BB

River brings

CO thinks for about three seconds, and shoves in a barrel (BETS 200 BB)
Hero CALLS 200 BB

CO says "oh fuck." Then he frowns, tabling .

I tell him were are chopping and he says "thank god."

UTG+2s cards are still close, and he flips them to show

Discuss.

 

[springbox]

Wow, he was going for some crazy value on the river with that overbet. I guess that's good for a maniac, if you look like you're always making crazy bluffs you want to get paid when you actually pick up something good. I think UTG+2 played it fine, your call of the 50BB in the middle looks super strong with him still behind you. Congrats on splitting UTG+2s 20BB in a 562BB pot

Would you have folded if the river was a raggy spade?

 

[Taghkanic]

I watched a training video recently which argued that quick actions on later streets (like the CO only taking 3 seconds to put in 200BB) are rarely monsters.

If someone has a huge value hand to bet, this coach argued, they are likely to ponder how big to go and often also try to look indecisive to induce calls.

Not sure that comports 100% with my experience but thought it was an interesting argument.

 

[suchj0sh]

I mean i can give it a day. But the pitchforks are already coming out.

Was an interesting hand ! I think you played it well.

 

[JustinInMN]

Wow, well nice.call. I really dislike CO play here.

In part because the point @Taghkanic brings up has a lot of truth. This overbet may be a sizing tell combined with the quick action.

Turning this into a bluff only benefits him if hero would fold AQ. I don't think hero realistically has over pairs, so anything of value better than AQ is probably a set and will never fold. Obviously we know hero isn't even going to find a fold with KQ, he won't with AQ.

If cutoff wants to bet, I think his best play is trying to for value from 88-JJ at a smaller sizing if he bets at all. A smaller sizing might also work as a "blocker bet" so he could get to showdown for a lower price than hero might pick if he goes for a value bet.

Funny UTG+2 found a fold with the same hand. But I could see it from his prospective being the original raiser and running into the 3-bettor (this was also my case for hero folding pre.)