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Interesting Hand $25/$50/$100 NLHE (3 Viewers)

Windwalker said:
Flop is :tc::2d::4c:
Click to expand...
That is an excellent board for Hero, Hero is holding the nut advantage with more TT and over pairs in his range.

V1 is unlikely to hold 22 & 44, V2 might have some 44 on a low frequency.

We are not blocking any Club draw and no worry of ATs club with Club T on the flop.

I think this is a spot where we can bet huge, $4000+ as we need to deny some overcards equity (Especially Ax s club and Diamonds) & combo draw like A4s to 67s plus also get value from pair 66-99 who will need to call at least one street

Only likely hands to be behind are 2 combo of ATs, 6 combo of JJ, 6 combo of slowplayed KK/AA & 3 combo of 44 if we get called
 
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LeLe said:
That is an excellent board for Hero, Hero is holding the nut advantage with more TT and over pairs in his range.

V1 is unlikely to hold 22 & 44, V2 might have some 44 on a low frequency.

We are not blocking any Club draw and no worry of ATs club with Club T on the flop.

I think this is a spot where we can bet huge, $4000+ as we need to deny some overcards equity (Especially Ax s club and Diamonds) & combo draw like A4s to 67s plus also get value from pair 66-99 who will need to call at least one street

Only likely hands to be behind are 2 combo of ATs, 6 combo of JJ, 6 combo of slowplayed KK/AA & 3 combo of 44 if we get called
Click to expand...
I can't help but wonder if a flop overbet could be a play on this texture. Obviously in this hand this is for value, and reasonable bluffs for this texture in other hands could include broadways that missed with a backdoor flush/straight draw with two overs.
 
$1600 feels maybe a little large over a 3x open in position, I’d guess $12-1300 accomplishes the same thing without overly bloating the pot.

Post flop I’m gonna continue for a small 30-40% size - so $15-1800 ish. Original raiser has all of the JJ and QQ (which we block) in his range as well AKcc, AQcc AJcc and V2 has some nut flush and flush draws available as well as sets. Against a raise/pressure I’m probably calling and reassessing on clean turns. I didn’t call preflop to check or fold top pair on a dry-ish board.

PS - anybody who’s folding QTs on the button to a single raise is never getting an invite to my games
 
LeLe said:
That is an excellent board for Hero, Hero is holding the nut advantage with more TT and over pairs in his range.

V1 is unlikely to hold 22 & 44, V2 might have some 44 on a low frequency.

We are not blocking any Club draw and no worry of ATs club with Club T on the flop.

I think this is a spot where we can bet huge, $4000+ as we need to deny some overcards equity (Especially Ax s club and Diamonds) & combo draw like A4s to 67s plus also get value from pair 66-99 who will need to call at least one street

Only likely hands to be behind are 2 combo of ATs, 6 combo of JJ, 6 combo of slowplayed KK/AA & 3 combo of 44 if we get called
Click to expand...
This sounds so smart that I agree with it and have nothing to add. Get in the $$$$ or get folds while we are best.
 
Fold pre.

I'll read up on future streets and edit

Ok, got to the flop. I'm leading 1/3 pot. The only conceivable hands calling here should be overpairs and club draws. As played, I'm folding to a reraise and shutting down on the turn or river to any club.
 
Windwalker said:
I will say, I’m quite puzzled by the number of fold pre posts. 300-400bb deep, you’d fold pre with suited broadway on the button to a single 3bb raise?
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I think that's the "I'm posting a strategy thread therefore I lost the hand" mentality here.

I think the 3-bet pre is a solid play. On a flop like this, I would C-bet for about 1/3 pot.
 
Windwalker said:
I will say, I’m quite puzzled by the number of fold pre posts. 300-400bb deep, you’d fold pre with suited broadway on the button to a single 3bb raise?
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Its definitely tight, but I'm not worried about the 3BB raise, I'm worried about where I'm ending up if I don't 3bet, instead calling and getting squeezed. You said 4 recs/4 pros, V2 is a grinder pro and two of the others are directly to my left, I'd rather not give them good odds to squeeze or come along with QTs. Definitely good with 3betting, but still working through why a call would be better than a fold in this situation. If I call, I'm expecting to have to call at least one more bet to see a flop, and I'm annoyed if V2 4-bets it after baiting the squeeze.

I don't usually play this deep, I missed that aspect for sure. You mentioned V2 as a grinder pro, what do you have his range as preflop, calling a fish's raise with this many people left behind him? Is he smooth calling with high pairs figuring someone else will raise so he can call again, or possibly trapping?

Thanks for posting it, good thoughts. I'm not an expert and want to keep challenging my line.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Its definitely tight, but I'm not worried about the 3BB raise, I'm worried about where I'm ending up if I don't 3bet, instead calling and getting squeezed. You said 4 recs/4 pros, V2 is a grinder pro and two of the others are directly to my left, I'd rather not give them good odds to squeeze or come along with QTs. Definitely good with 3betting, but still working through why a call would be better than a fold in this situation. If I call, I'm expecting to have to call at least one more bet to see a flop, and I'm annoyed if V2 4-bets it after baiting the squeeze.

I don't usually play this deep, I missed that aspect for sure. You mentioned V2 as a grinder pro, what do you have his range as preflop, calling a fish's raise with this many people left behind him? Is he smooth calling with high pairs figuring someone else will raise so he can call again, or possibly trapping?

Thanks for posting it, good thoughts. I'm not an expert and want to keep challenging my line.
Click to expand...
Yeah that’s my amateur take - I’m not sure if a 3-bet is better than a fold, but I’m damn sure a fold is better than a call.
I’m guessing I should fold, but somebody good is free to 3-bet.
 
upNdown said:
Yeah that’s my amateur take - I’m not sure if a 3-bet is better than a fold, but I’m damn sure a fold is better than a call.
I’m guessing I should fold, but somebody good is free to 3-bet.
Click to expand...
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Its definitely tight, but I'm not worried about the 3BB raise, I'm worried about where I'm ending up if I don't 3bet, instead calling and getting squeezed. You said 4 recs/4 pros, V2 is a grinder pro and two of the others are directly to my left, I'd rather not give them good odds to squeeze or come along with QTs. Definitely good with 3betting, but still working through why a call would be better than a fold in this situation. If I call, I'm expecting to have to call at least one more bet to see a flop, and I'm annoyed if V2 4-bets it after baiting the squeeze.

I don't usually play this deep, I missed that aspect for sure. You mentioned V2 as a grinder pro, what do you have his range as preflop, calling a fish's raise with this many people left behind him? Is he smooth calling with high pairs figuring someone else will raise so he can call again, or possibly trapping?

Thanks for posting it, good thoughts. I'm not an expert and want to keep challenging my line.
Click to expand...

Not sure where you guys are at in terms of solver-land, but this is not a fold with QTs. It's essentially a 50/50 call or raise situation with raising being slightly favored (53/47).

If the SB 3! after you flat on the button and both of the other players fold to you, you are folding QTs 65% of the time. If either of the villains flat the 3! you should fold to the squeeze from the blind, but I'd probably peel just to see the flop and ultimately lose a big pot when my diamond flush hits. Suited connectors play better deepstacked than they do when you are only 100BB effective.

So this is a 3! for me first but if I am feeling nitty, a call.
 
ngmcs8203 said:
Not sure where you guys are at in terms of solver-land, but this is not a fold with QTs. It's essentially a 50/50 call or raise situation with raising being slightly favored (53/47).

If the SB 3! after you flat on the button and both of the other players fold to you, you are folding QTs 65% of the time. If either of the villains flat the 3! you should fold to the squeeze from the blind, but I'd probably peel just to see the flop and ultimately lose a big pot when my diamond flush hits. Suited connectors play better deepstacked than they do when you are only 100BB effective.

So this is a 3! for me first but if I am feeling nitty, a call.
Click to expand...
Very little solver work, but very interested in learning more. Just starting in on Brokos's books on the basics. That's really interesting. I believe you, but I'm annoying so I'll keep asking questions. Its not that I don't respect your reasoning, I just want to learn more: solver expects everyone to be playing "perfectly", right? I'm assuming blinds are more likely to squeeze than expected at a balance knowing the opener is soft, so if I'm assuming a raise is coming more often than not to isolate the preflop fish, why am I signing up to fold 65% of the time? What does the solver put V2's range on? I'm curious what the computer is expecting him to have, that's all, and I'm wondering if the solver is accounting for how large V1s range is and the blinds knowing it. Many solvers will expect V1s range to be very strong and scary (please correct my understanding if not), but that's not the case in this game and that could change the math.

You say it flippantly but that's what I expect to happen lol, QTs isn't a suited connector and can get in some scary dominated spots deepstacked.

Edit to add: And you say its definitely not a fold, coinflip between call and raise, that really surprises me, I thought raising would be far better. Is this possibly because the solver has the EP range as very strong?
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Very little solver work, but very interested in learning more. Just starting in on Brokos's books on the basics. That's really interesting. I believe you, but I'm annoying so I'll keep asking questions. Its not that I don't respect your reasoning, I just want to learn more: solver expects everyone to be playing "perfectly", right? I'm assuming blinds are more likely to squeeze than expected at a balance knowing the opener is soft, so if I'm assuming a raise is coming more often than not to isolate the preflop fish, why am I signing up to fold 65% of the time? What does the solver put V2's range on? I'm curious what the computer is expecting him to have, that's all, and I'm wondering if the solver is accounting for how large V1s range is and the blinds knowing it. Many solvers will expect V1s range to be very strong and scary (please correct my understanding if not), but that's not the case in this game and that could change the math.

You say it flippantly but that's what I expect to happen lol, QTs isn't a suited connector and can get in some scary dominated spots deepstacked.
Click to expand...
I think you overthinking this because the the high stakes and the fact that four pro's are at the table.

Put this in terms of a $1/$3 game. If V1 raised to 3bb ($9 pre flop) and V2 called are you are still folding QTs preflop?
 
bernielomax said:
I think you overthinking this because the the high stakes and the fact that four pro's are at the table.

Put this in terms of a $1/$3 game. If V1 raised to 3bb ($9 pre flop) and V2 called are you are still folding QTs preflop?
Click to expand...
Very fair, I'd add that I think the irony is that I'm trying to play what I think to be "correct" when in person I'd probably call quickly lol. Of course I'm overthinking!

If I've got two aggressive players to my left I'm most likely raising to isolate but still spooked by just calling, I'd expect to get squeezed most of the time. I'll agree that folding is very nitty and I'm probably giving too much credence to "pros" as compared to my usual kiddie pool, but in my mind calling is still begging for a squeeze.

(Sorry to dominate thread with pre-flop convos, we're on flop, thanks for discussion. Thinking through it more.)
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Very little solver work, but very interested in learning more. Just starting in on Brokos's books on the basics. That's really interesting. I believe you, but I'm annoying so I'll keep asking questions. Its not that I don't respect your reasoning, I just want to learn more: solver expects everyone to be playing "perfectly", right? I'm assuming blinds are more likely to squeeze than expected at a balance knowing the opener is soft, so if I'm assuming a raise is coming more often than not to isolate the preflop fish, why am I signing up to fold 65% of the time? What does the solver put V2's range on? I'm curious what the computer is expecting him to have, that's all, and I'm wondering if the solver is accounting for how large V1s range is and the blinds knowing it. Many solvers will expect V1s range to be very strong and scary (please correct my understanding if not), but that's not the case in this game and that could change the math.

You say it flippantly but that's what I expect to happen lol, QTs isn't a suited connector and can get in some scary dominated spots deepstacked.

Edit to add: And you say its definitely not a fold, coinflip between call and raise, that really surprises me, I thought raising would be far better. Is this possibly because the solver has the EP range as very strong?
Click to expand...
Yes, solver expects perfect play from opponents and EP's range is tight. You can node lock in the solver to help define a particular opponent's range, but I am on the free plan for now and don't have access to node locking.

Here are the three ranges from a simple GTOW 6-max solve. Orange raise, blue fold, green call, black not in range, purple jam. UTG is loose, so I went with a 6-max instead of 9-max solve.

UTG

1713812531809.png


MP
1713812551660.png


BTN

1713812571051.png


UTG when BTN 3!

1713812620765.png
'

MP response if UTG flats the 3!

1713812661446.png
 
For the preflop debate, it's not just an open - it is a utg open. Depends on how loose/how aggressive per the description but generally utg is opening hands that have q10 suited in a world of negative implied odds.

Sure, 3 bet a cutoff open with this hand. But UTG? Nah.
 
I'm not sure I'm a big fan of building a huge pot on such a dynamic flop with top pair medium kicker but I've been studying too much PLO lately so I'd go with a check here for pot control and protecting my check-back range for a polarized betting strategy. Playing merged with a 3-400bb stack seems as fun as punching yourself in the balls for 3 streets.
 
Continuing…

Played a super interesting hand at the Bike last week, and have been thinking about it a bunch.

Hero on the BTN, 2 hours into a $25/$50/$100 (blind, not straddle) game. 4 pros, 4 rec players. Average stack is around $40k. Hero has $34k, bought in for $20k.

Villain 1 is UTG, very loose, very aggressive rec player, can really have anything at any time. Known to make absurd hero calls. Was down $40k in the first 5 minutes, but has aggressively built his stack back up, up about $5k now. Stack at $45k.

V2 is a grinder pro, but very old school. Plays the way the old books say he should play. Wins when the cards are in his favor. Has been on a losing streak the last 5-6 sessions. Probably down $150k in the last 6 sessions. Sitting at just under $30k. He is in middle position.

Hero looks down at :qd::td:

V1 raises to $300.
V2 calls.

Everyone else folds. SB and BB are TAG pros. Both winning players.

—-
We’re not interested in giving the pros in the blinds any pot odds incentive to call here, so we decide to raise in position.

Hero raises to $1600.

SB, and both the big blinds fold.

V1 insta-calls.

V2 pauses for a bit, calls.

There is now $4975 in the pot.

Flop is :tc::2d::4c:

V1 checks, V2 checks.

This is a decent flop for us, but a board that provides draw-heavy value for a lot of our opponents ranges.

We decide to bet. Hero bets $1800.

V1 calls. V2 also calls.

Pot is now $10,375.

Turn is :qc:

V1 checks.
V2 checks.

Hero?
 

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