PLO Hand From Tonight (1 Viewer)

[MoscowRadio]

I was playing .25/.50 PLO tonight when the following hand came about and I thought I would ask the PLO experts to weigh in. I love PLO, but I have nowhere near the experience with it as I do with NLHE.

We're 6-handed and Hero has only seen a couple of orbits, so we have no real information on Villain. Villain is the effective stack with $49.50. Hero covers with $66.

UTG limps and Hero, who is on the button, has .

Hero's move?

 

[Kain8]

Pot it up and hope to flop either top set or a nut diamond draw.

 

[Payback]

Easy pot. You have a top 0.01% hand.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pot. If anyone reraises, pot again. We have the button and one of the most powerful openers in Omaha.

Prepare to watch the flop come out 789 all hearts, though.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Ummmm yea, pot. Get as much in as fast as you can now.

 

[MoscowRadio]

I'm not even going to keep on with the pre-flop question as everyone knows that the obvious answer is obvious. POT.

Hero pots to $2.25. SB calls. Villain is in the BB and calls and UTG calls. Pot is $9.00 and we are four-ways

Flop comes

SB checks, BB checks, and UTG checks.

Hero?

 

[BGinGA]

Pot.

 

[Kain8]

Pot but stomp on the brakes if you get checkraised due to the possibility of you making a boat is damn slim.

 

[MoscowRadio]

This is what is going through Hero's head right now:

Should Hero bet the full pot? There are a lot of hands that will come in for max value. Most certainly QQxx comes along and maybe AKxx and AQxx won't fold to one bet and those are the hands Hero should want to get value from.

 

[DrStrange]

Slow playing Omaha hands has a way of biting you in the ass.

I bet pot and would consider bet/folding facing a pot sized check/raise but likely couldn't bring myself to do that.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Despite how awesome this looks, it's actually a pretty shitty flop for this hand.

I'm checking behind. Against three players, we're either not getting action (especially with so much of the pairable deck locked up and no flush draws), or we're getting raised by a made Broadway. Checking protects us from a check-raise if we're behind and conceals how strong we are. If the board pairs, great. If anything but a T or J comes off and it checks to us again, we're probably ahead and can safely bet.

Most certainly KKxx and QQxx come along

KKxx is outright impossible.

 

[MoscowRadio]

KKxx is outright impossible.

Sure is. Whoops.

 

[MoscowRadio]

Despite how awesome this looks, it's actually a pretty shitty flop for this hand.

I would definitely like to hear more about your thought process. I used to casually play PLO, but now I'm getting more serious about it. It's a lot of fun, but I am definitely still transitioning from NLHE. There are definitely a lot more swings and the variance is super high.

I understand that JT is an absolute possibility here, and with this many players it's very likely that somebody flopped Broadway, but that's the only hand I'm behind to at the moment. Wouldn't it make sense to get money in while our hand is this strong?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I would definitely like to hear more about your thought process. I used to casually play PLO, but now I'm getting more serious about it. It's a lot of fun, but I am definitely still transitioning from NLHE. There are definitely a lot more swings and the variance is super high.

I understand that JT is an absolute possibility here, and with this many players it's very likely that somebody flopped Broadway, but that's the only hand I'm behind to at the moment. Wouldn't it make sense to get money in while our hand is this strong?

Omaha isn't just about having the best hand at the moment. It's about having the best hand at showdown.

This hand suffers almost the same drawbacks as, say, 6922 on a 78T rainbow board. It's the second nuts, and it may look nice to the hold'em side of your brain, but (a) getting significant action is unlikely unless it's beat (or tied in the straight case, but let's ignore that for simplicity), and (b) improvement is very unlikely.

The AAKK hand is better than the ten-high straight, but same idea. We have so many cards locked up that there's aren't many playable hands to give us action aside from TJ, and it's very hard to improve in the cases when we're beaten. So we bet, and then what? When we're ahead, we're way ahead but getting little or no action, and when we're behind, we're getting plenty of action while holding a hand whose chances are only a little better than a gutshot.

That's why I think a check is better here. The turn may yet bring a pleasant surprise.

(BTW, I'm only an Omaha student myself, but I'm pretty good at talking like I know everything.)

 

[DrStrange]

The problem is the villains can't hold many hands that are behind Hero's hand yet still should call a bet. QQxx would call a bet but other that and JTxx for the nuts, most of the competent players will fold. I would be a lot more cautious if the stacks were deeper. As it is, Hero can still be forced close to all-in by JT with just two pot sided bets.

 

[MoscowRadio]

Omaha isn't just about having the best hand at the moment. It's about having the best hand at showdown.

This hand suffers almost the same drawbacks as, say, 6922 on a 78T rainbow board. It's the second nuts, and it may look nice to the hold'em side of your brain, but (a) getting significant action is unlikely unless it's beat (or tied in the straight case, but let's ignore that for simplicity), and (b) improvement is very unlikely.

The AAKK hand is better than the ten-high straight, but same idea. We have so many cards locked up that there's aren't many playable hands to give us action aside from TJ, and it's very hard to improve in the cases when we're beaten. So we bet, and then what? When we're ahead, we're way ahead but getting little or no action, and when we're behind, we're getting plenty of action while holding a hand whose chances are only a little better than a gutshot.

That's why I think a check is better here. The turn may yet bring a pleasant surprise.

(BTW, I'm only an Omaha student myself, but I'm pretty good at talking like I know everything.)

I very much appreciate your insight, and you're right; the chances of improving on this board are unlikely due to the blockers that the other three players may be/are very possibly holding.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I very much appreciate your insight, and you're right; the chances of improving on this board are unlikely due to the blockers that the other three players may be/are very possibly holding.

I'm not worried about blockers in other people's hands. We can't assume anyone has any specific blockers yet. Other players' hands are pure unknowns for the purpose of counting outs, unless we somehow get very specific information that we can use to narrow them down.

It's our hand that has the blockers. That set of kings is worse than useless; it cripples the improvement potential of our set of aces by 2/7 = ~28.6% on the flop and then 1/5 = 20% on the turn.

 

[detroitdad]

Omaha isn't just about having the best hand at the moment. It's about having the best hand at showdown.

Yep, what I try to tell people that are new at PLO is that the most important part of your hand after the flop is how strong your re draw is. If you "can't" improve your hand. Tread cautiously.

Even though you have your own blockers which suck. I'm potting this hand. You very well could have the nuts. Even though you have a blocker of your own. Your re draw is to pretty damn good.

Pot, if reraised, pot it again and gamble for your stack

 

[David O]

Pot it!!! DO NOT SLOW PLAY!! The only way you could have a better starting hand is to be two suite like .

 

[Shaggy]

I'm more inline with Jim on this one (albeit a PLO rookie myself). We only really get action from JT and maybe QQ. The AK, AQ, KQ are pretty unlikely given our holdings. I like the check behind purely from a pot control perspective.

 

[MoscowRadio]

Hero bets $7.50 into the pot of $9. Villain calls, BB and UTG both fold. SB has $39.75 left behind and Hero covers. Pot is now $24.00.

Turn comes and Villain checks.

Hero?

Looking back, Hero could have just as easily gotten a call betting the pot as he could have betting $7.50. Still moving from NLHE to PLO.

 

[BGinGA]

Normally, I'd pot. But with your line, I'd bet $20. Hope he has JT / AQ / KQ and re-pots. If he has QQ, you still have two redraw outs to better quads.

 

[DrStrange]

I like the plan for two $20 bet on the turn and river. $39.75 is all we can ever hope to get from villain.

Hero is pot committed except he might reconsider if the river is a queen. Hero is going to pay villain off if villain holds QQxx.

 

[detroitdad]

Normally, I'd pot. But with your line, I'd bet $20. Hope he has JT / AQ / KQ and re-pots. If he has QQ, you still have two redraw outs to better quads.

I like the plan for two $20 bet on the turn and river. $39.75 is all we can ever hope to get from villain.

Hero is pot committed except he might reconsider if the river is a queen. Hero is going to pay villain off if villain holds QQxx.

I agree with both of the gentlemen

 

[Jimulacrum]

Aces full, Mike.

Bet $15 on the turn, plan to call any raise or shove the river unless it's a third queen.

If he has quads, so be it. Even the strongest line Villain could take isn't enough to narrow him down to specifically quads before stacks are in the middle.

 

[AlPresidente]

PF pot is obvious.
I like the flop bet but might have made it slightly smaller $6-7. We don't want to see the turn 4-way. More betting for protection - pushing out QJ/QTxx type hands than for value off QQ. If we get raised, I think we can fold here.
Turn I think we can check. A queen is the only bad river for us. Easier for him to crying call with JT on the river and we give him a chance to bluff.

 

[Adam Crowley]

On the flop in these spots you can also bet closer to half pot.

I very rarely bet full pot anymore just because of how strong it looks.

Betting approx half pot does a few things:

• When you are bluff cbetting the flop it gives more credit to your range
• People call looser vs the smaller bet size so you are not isolating your self against only the top of your opponents range

Just to clarify I would never bluff this flop

 

[DrStrange]

The problem with 1/2 pot bets is the draws are getting close to proper odds, if not better than proper odds. Keep in mind a four card hand can have a lot of direct outs and that runner-runner outs can be the extra edge that makes paying for the draw profitable. { and we haven't even begun to consider implied odds. }

It is one thing to splash around when the stacks are short. Making the same sorts of plays with stacks deep enough to absorb three or more pot sized bets after the flop is an invitation to have difficult spots late in the hand when the bets get biggest. I would need a sizable skill edge and/or position to make a small flop bet. I think Hero can find better times to make less than pot sized bets later in the hand, especially on the river,

 

[onerand]

I like $15 on the turn. You have position and can bet rest on river. Flop is a bet fold if checkraised. You block yourself

 

[MoscowRadio]

Okay, it is checked to Hero and Hero bets $20. Villain shoves for $39.75. Hero calls and Villain shows for turned quads.

River is :3h and Villain scoops.

This post was not intended to be a "oh, poor me" rant, but more of a 'how-could-I-have-played-this-better' post. In hindsight, I realize the hand really just played itself from the flop, but if anyone has anything to add I would really love to hear it.

With all of this being said, I am really loving PLO and the differences in the ways of thinking you are challenged with. I actually got berated for calling a guy with a 16 out wrap against his top set with no redraw.