PLO8, trash in the big blind (2 Viewers)

[DrStrange]

We are seven handed playing dealers choice at Rumble in the Rockies. The orbit the game is $0.25/ $0.50 pot limit Omaha hi/low split.

I'll say something about the villains a little later in the hand. For now just know that the stacks are generally in the $100 to $300 range, with the typical stack closer to $100. Hero is playing $120.

The hand:

There is are four limpers when the action gets to Hero in the Big Blind holding . I consider this a trash hand and never would raise it in the blinds. If you disagree, speak up!

So hero limps and gets a dream flop:



SB checks. Action on hero, check (trapping) or bet pot = $3?

 

[Chicken Rob]

Never slow play PLO. I pot.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Never slow play PLO. I pot.

Plus your opponent likely has a low draw or 2pr or some other piece. If he folds there was no good way to make much of this hand ever.

 

[Kyle]

Never slow play PLO. I pot.

Agree. PLO changes so much.

 

[Ben]

This is one of the more interesting spots you'll find in PLO8 - there are a few things to consider:

A23r is pretty much the most "lockdown" board there is - each player either has 45 (nut nut,) or little to no prospects against it. Check-raising this flop turns your hand 100% face-up, as no one would or should EVER do this without having it. Betting out for $3 will likely get you a LITTLE action from worse, as people will toss out three bucks with just about anything (even though when they evaluate the hand, they know they shouldn't.)

On the other hand, unless an opponent happens to fill up, the value train ends there against hands that don't contain 45. However, with this hand, we have a significant 6-out plus backdoor-flush freeroll to quarter a naked 45, if we can get it in with them. When playing this game with good players, this is the type of edge you're looking to push. People with 45 are just going to flat a $3 bet because there is no value in raising there, but if we can C/R we can get our stack in, at least by the turn. That's what I'd look to do.

Keep in mind, a decent percentage of the time when you get it in, your opponent will also have a redraw (2-pair most likely) and you'll have your whole stack in the middle on a miniscule edge. Expect variance.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pot, get repotted, potpotpotpotpot. Run it once, end up against , watch in dismay as the board runs out 4c: and you get quartered by the new nut/nut.

 

[Payback]

This is one of the more interesting spots you'll find in PLO8 - there are a few things to consider:

A23r is pretty much the most "lockdown" board there is - each player either has 45 (nut nut,) or little to no prospects against it. Check-raising this flop turns your hand 100% face-up, as no one would or should EVER do this without having it. Betting out for $3 will likely get you a LITTLE action from worse, as people will toss out three bucks with just about anything (even though when they evaluate the hand, they know they shouldn't.)

On the other hand, unless an opponent happens to fill up, the value train ends there against hands that don't contain 45. However, with this hand, we have a significant 6-out plus backdoor-flush freeroll to quarter a naked 45, if we can get it in with them. When playing this game with good players, this is the type of edge you're looking to push. People with 45 are just going to flat a $3 bet because there is no value in raising there, but if we can C/R we can get our stack in, at least by the turn. That's what I'd look to do.

Keep in mind, a decent percentage of the time when you get it in, your opponent will also have a redraw (2-pair most likely) and you'll have your whole stack in the middle on a miniscule edge. Expect variance.

You'd only have 4 outs vs. naked 45.

 

[atomiktoaster]

This is one of the more interesting spots you'll find in PLO8 - there are a few things to consider:

A23r is pretty much the most "lockdown" board there is - each player either has 45 (nut nut,) or little to no prospects against it. Check-raising this flop turns your hand 100% face-up, as no one would or should EVER do this without having it. Betting out for $3 will likely get you a LITTLE action from worse, as people will toss out three bucks with just about anything (even though when they evaluate the hand, they know they shouldn't.)

On the other hand, unless an opponent happens to fill up, the value train ends there against hands that don't contain 45. However, with this hand, we have a significant 6-out plus backdoor-flush freeroll to quarter a naked 45, if we can get it in with them. When playing this game with good players, this is the type of edge you're looking to push. People with 45 are just going to flat a $3 bet because there is no value in raising there, but if we can C/R we can get our stack in, at least by the turn. That's what I'd look to do.

Keep in mind, a decent percentage of the time when you get it in, your opponent will also have a redraw (2-pair most likely) and you'll have your whole stack in the middle on a miniscule edge. Expect variance.

Man, hands like this in deep stack split pot games make me terrified of meet up poker. It's like some twisted combination of spin the bottle and russian roulette, where usually everybody chops a 50c blind and moves on, but sometimes somebody gets stacked.

 

[courage]

Never slowplaying PLO8, pot the flop.

 

[jbutler]

Does anyone give consideration to the problem that if we get a bunch of bets in on the flop heads up that we're likely on a mutual freeroll? And therefore that we should be doing what we can to get others' money into the pot so that we have something to chop up when the board bricks out?

Obviously I agree we should be potting because we have to build something out of this limped pot, but I'm not nearly so eager to shut people out of their shitty high draws (gutters, backdoor flush draws, two pair, etc.) that will certainly call at least one bet here and are very likely to call another PSB on the turn.

 

[DrStrange]

*** pot it is! ***

Hero bets $3.

Our new friend, the local from my tournament thread sits to my left playing $150. He has been talking about a $30/$60 Omaha game, though it isn't clear if he plays it or deals it or is just talking. He has the veneer of an experienced Omaha player. I don't have much evidence yet one way or the other. He calls.

@David O has position on us both and covers us both. This Villain may have some experience playing Omaha, it is hard to tell. For sure he knows the rules and some basic level strategy. Hero has a fair amount of table time with Villain, but only a tiny number of pot limit O8 hands. Villain repots to $15. Everyone else folds.

Action on Hero, fold, call or raise? If raising, how much?

DrStrange

 

[atomiktoaster]

Call or pot, depending if you like jbutler's last line of thinking. You might all be freerolling though.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Repot. Hope villain has 45xx and no redraws and you're freerolling to quarter him if another 4 or 5 come out. If the villain doesn't have a ton of PLO experience he may have something like AA46 even and think its a great hand. Get in as much money as you can.

 

[Ben]

Potpotpotpotrepot.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I like a call here to keep the extra dead money in the hand if possible. Strong possibility you and David O could be chopping this hand as it is.

And if he has a set with weaker low he may fold to your pot bet. But if he has 4 5 with a set, I want to make sure the board doesn't pair before I get my stack in.

I may have a more conservative approach to PLO & PLO8, but most of the people I play against are bad enough that I can wait for lock spots and still get paid pretty easily.

 

[Mr Tree]

Man I'm seeing all green lights here. No way I could take my foot off the gas.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I like a call here to keep the extra dead money in the hand if possible. Strong possibility you and David O could be chopping this hand as it is.

And if he has a set with weaker low he may fold to your pot bet. But if he has 4 5 with a set, I want to make sure the board doesn't pair before I get my stack in.

I may have a more conservative approach to PLO & PLO8, but most of the people I play against are bad enough that I can wait for lock spots and still get paid pretty easily.

Are you ever folding, even if the board pairs? It's very unlikely (though not impossible) that he has a set and 45. If you flat, and he pots the turn and river, all your chips are committed anyway. May as well get it in now. Hey, we even have a backdoor diamond draw!

 

[Rhodeman77]

With these stacks I'm not folding, you're right there. But I am greedy too, and would like to keep the tournament guy in the hand too. If we repot it, he can get away from his hand easily now.

And because of the possibility of being quartered is very real with a bad run out keeping the 3rd player in the hand will help mitigate the loss in that event.

 

[Mr Tree]

Are you ever folding, even if the board pairs? It's very unlikely (though not impossible) that he has a set and 45. If you flat, and he pots the turn and river, all your chips are committed anyway. May as well get it in now. Hey, we even have a backdoor diamond draw!

^^^this. There is no mitigating your loss if you get quartered here. What you need to do is get the money in for the situations where you scoop so you get paid.

 

[jbutler]

Are you ever folding, even if the board pairs? It's very unlikely (though not impossible) that he has a set and 45. If you flat, and he pots the turn and river, all your chips are committed anyway. May as well get it in now. Hey, we even have a backdoor diamond draw!

^^^this. There is no mitigating your loss if you get quartered here. What you need to do is get the money in for the situations where you scoop so you get paid.

I'm not at all trying to find folds or to mitigate losses. I'm never folding and I'm trying to increase wins. Anyone raising with anything other than 45xx is an idiot and David is no idiot, so at best we're freerolling him with a backdoor diamond draw and a gutter to the higher straight.

Would we rather have an approximately 5% chance to quarter David or would we rather maximize the possibility of getting paid by the caller in the middle? I'm flatting and hoping middle villain comes along.

 

[Kyle]

This is Plo8, split pot for the high and low right?

Re-pop pot. No question. If the other players have anything like 2 pair, set, or better straight draw, they will not fold.

Now just hope the hand holds after 2 more rds of betting.

Slow playing in Omaha is asking to get beat later on.

 

[Ben]

I'm not at all trying to find folds or to mitigate losses. I'm never folding and I'm trying to increase wins. Anyone raising with anything other than 45xx is an idiot and David is no idiot, so at best we're freerolling him with a backdoor diamond draw and a gutter to the higher straight.

Would we rather have an approximately 5% chance to quarter David or would we rather maximize the possibility of getting paid by the caller in the middle? I'm flatting and hoping middle villain comes along.

We're 12% to quarter David (hopefully) and have no reason to believe the guy in the middle (an experienced O8 player, allegedly) will give us any more light action (he shouldn't, with anything, and if he IS bad enough to, maybe he'll stack off anyway...) If we just call and one of our magic 4s or 5s comes on the turn, we might not get paid in full. Potpotpotpotpot.

 

[jbutler]

We're 12% to quarter David (hopefully) and have no reason to believe the guy in the middle (an experienced O8 player, allegedly) will give us any more light action (he shouldn't, with anything, and if he IS bad enough to, maybe he'll stack off anyway...) If we just call and one of our magic 4s or 5s comes on the turn, we might not get paid in full. Potpotpotpotpot.

Whoops yeah I missed a few outs.

I still feel the same at 12% as I did at 5%. The guy might fold, but in my experience it's unlikely and I want his money in more than I want a 12% shot at a quarter of the pot, of which almost 50% will be money I'll have put in.

If one of the 4s or 5s come on the turn and we don't get paid, we'll have gotten 100% of the pot, so that's fine by me.

 

[courage]

I think in this spot with stack sizes and bc we have the 6 we can flat hoping to drag v1 to the deep end of the pool.

Agreed we're never folding later in hand so that gives us options on the turn to lead or OMC-check&raise.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

You guys seem to think it's impossible we get a call from something other than another 45. I find it hard to believe either villain is folding a set if they also hold a 4 or a 5 in their hand, and I wouldnt be surprised to get a call from a hand like A346. Keep potting.

 

[Chicken Rob]

You guys seem to think it's impossible we get a call from something other than another 45. I find it hard to believe either villain is folding a set if they also hold a 4 or a 5 in their hand, and I wouldnt be surprised to get a call from a hand like A346. Keep potting.

I'm with chippy on this one. Potpotpotpotpot.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Let's not forget this was a limped pot. I think hands like A346 would be raising preflop especially with a suited A.

Sets of 2 or 3 are definitely possible with a 4 .
Also as bad a 1 pair hands with a 4 may call from the 3 player. I think most of our value in this hand is coming from him.

If we have David crushed as well then even better, we can get his money in on the turn.

 

[courage]

You guys seem to think it's impossible we get a call from something other than another 45. I find it hard to believe either villain is folding a set if they also hold a 4 or a 5 in their hand, and I wouldnt be surprised to get a call from a hand like A346. Keep potting.

No I'm not thinking that, I mistakenly deleted a line from my last post to say it's very close and I don't think either play is bad. David O obv likes his hand and we may be freerolling. V1 could have anything from 2 pair to a bad low draw, so I'd prefer to keep him in.

 

[bergs]

Flatting seems like fancy play syndrome. Pot until our eyes fall out.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero calls as does the local regular villain. Three way action to the turn, $48 in the pot. Hero is in the Big Blind holding .

Turn is < :3h >

Action on Hero, bet or check? If not betting pot, how much and why?