Pocket 9s in the C-O against arch nemesis on the button (1 Viewer)

[doakwolf]

This is my first attempt at such a post. I've been reading DrStrange's for a while now so I hope I get this right. I'm also on the other side of the world from most so there may be delays

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Playing the semi-regular NLH deep stack tourney with friends & starting stacks of 20k.

We're still in the first round with blinds at 25/50 - increasing next hand.

So far hero has won many small pots by bluffing at flops against weak players. Nothing huge yet but confidence is high.

Hero is a definite LAG lately. He's mostly there for the chips, the company and lots of fun. Drinking began hours before the game because the host wanted help emptying the fridge (wedding leftovers) and hero considers himself a professional drinker so is happy to oblige.

Villain is mostly sober sitting to hero's immediate left & is almost always hero's arch nemesis. Plenty of smack talk via group email leading up to the game and heaps of banter during play. Villain is a TAG with a recent gain in confidence at the table and some big wins under his belt lately. He's learned how to read people (and hands) quite well.

(Only notable hand prior - Hero and villain both flopped top pair and betting is mild/aggressive. Villain won this battle with a kicker vs hero's kicker. It hurt a little bit but revenge will be sweet)

Hero is sitting in the C-O with a touch over $20k after the above loss and is dealt . With nothing but 2 limp-ins around the table, hero raises to $150.

Villain snap re-raises to $250. All other's fold, action on hero. This pre-flop scenario reminds him of the (recent) previously lost hand but with slightly larger raises this time.

Fold, call or re-raise (how much)?

 

[DrStrange]

I am not that good a tournament player, take my advice with a grain of salt.

I'd just flat here and set mine. A min-raise is often a sign of great power (though not in my games), let's see if hero can get lucky. The implied odds on this are through the roof. Hero should never fold here for 100 chips.

The stacks are way way too deep to seek out a preflop pissing match with pocket nines, there will be ample time to do it later in the event.

I suggest Hero not make 99 a fight for a big pile of chips unimproved. Villain is a TAG and in position. Hero is going to get out played by the villain a lot here. That is not worth making an issue of so early. Teach the villain bad habits, your turn will come later if you whiff the flop.

DrStrange

PS The post looks fine, thanks for sharing.

 

[doakwolf]

I am not that good a tournament player, take my advice with a grain of salt.

Nor is hero! Definitely a better cash game player. I should also point out, hero is also very happy to re-buy. History shows an early bust-out and re-buy helps his tourney results by encouraging him to settle and grind (we usually offer only one re-buy per person).

I'm guessing most PCF members are in bed asleep now but since there really isn't anything juicy happening in this hand yet I'll confirm the obvious...

Hero calls putting villain on perhaps , maybe as low as . Possibly rags, playing a purely mental game... Villain's game is becoming more and more advanced each game and he doesn't give away much in the way of tells. Hero wonders if he bought some poker books from Puggy. That said, hero isn't thinking too much about looking for tells at this game - he's more interested in the chips and the free beer.

Flop comes and hero is first to act with ~675 in the pot.

Check or bet (how much)?

 

[DrStrange]

If villain is a TAG, he isn't going to show up with anything less than a premium hand. If Hero sees such things at this stage of the event very often, he needs to revisit how to label villain. Given Hero has a lot of table time with Villain, we'll assume the TAG label is accurate.

Villain three-bet Hero. Not only that, but the raise was the minimum allowed. These things should mean something special to Hero, but for now I range a TAG doing that type of range as QQ+ and AK only until proven otherwise.

Obviously QQ is a disaster for Hero, AA or KK is ideal. AK is not going to pay much to Hero beyond a normal c-bet. I prefer betting to checking here. Hero's table image means the bet is going to look like typical foolishness from Hero. Villain might still fold AK, but Hero is aiming at bigger hands by betting anyway.

Let's bet 450 and see what we learn.

And let's give the more experienced tournament players a chance to chime in. It is early in the morning here, just after 1 am. No one wants my tournament advice as the only piece of data.

 

[Ben]

Czech-raise. Looks totally FOS in this spot and villain may do something silly with an overpair or AQ given the dynamic (either now, or on the turn.) Also I don't want to lead and give him the chance to just fold AK. If we were up against a LAG I might lead and hope for spew (and since a lot of LAG's range would check behind on this flop,) but this guy should be c-betting here 100% and a have a strong range that he'll be very reluctant to fold to laggy Hero. If he has QQ we're going broke, no way around it.

 

[stocky]

Czech-raise. Looks totally FOS in this spot and villain may do something silly with an overpair or AQ given the dynamic (either now, or on the turn.) Also I don't want to lead and give him the chance to just fold AK. If we were up against a LAG I might lead and hope for spew (and since a lot of LAG's range would check behind on this flop,) but this guy should be c-betting here 100% and a have a strong range that he'll be very reluctant to fold to laggy Hero. If he has QQ we're going broke, no way around it.

This.

 

[doakwolf]

If villain is a TAG, he isn't going to show up with anything less than a premium hand. If Hero sees such things at this stage of the event very often, he needs to revisit how to label villain. Given Hero has a lot of table time with Villain, we'll assume the TAG label is accurate.

Nice call there, I appreciate the honesty and you've made me rethink the way a "TAG" may play at this early stage of a tourney. Or perhaps my idea of 'tight' is quite a bit looser than others. Things I need to remember and consider during these hands (y) :thumbsup: I'm learning and the more I analyse hands like this, the more I learn about myself and the way I play. I like it. Keen to hear more thoughts.

Further detail about the environment - we had a couple drop out so this is a 7 man tourney - almost short hand from the get-go.

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Perhaps Hero feels Villain may possibly loosen up when heads-up with Hero due to the constant banter. Both players would absolutely love to bluff each other out and would definitely show 'em if it happened. Some more background - Villain, although mostly honest, is a bully. He's over 6 foot tall, 120kg (260lb) and has been known to verbally intimidate new, younger players (but we all know these types are actually big teddy bears inside!). If he's holding AQ here, Hero would love the opportunity to take a monster pot and send him to the re-buy stand.

 

[detroitdad]

I agree with Dr Strange. I'm betting. If he has the monster hand we think thrn I want as much money in the pot as possible

 

[DrStrange]

Hero needs to act in character. If he sometimes check raises with air - fine. If his style of aggression is bet/bet/bet, then do that. What you don't want Hero to do is take a line different from his norm. For example, Hero likely doesn't fall into a check/call calling station line very often if ever. So don't do that with a monster. Act normal.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Our worst case (aside from a set-over-set cooler) is that he has unimproved Ax or JJ or less. A true TAG with that range of hands probably isn't losing more than one bet on the flop no matter what line we take.

Our best case is that he has AA, KK, or AQ, all of which seem within his range given the action. If he does have one of those, we want to trick him into thinking we have a weaker queen so he'll try to go to value town on us.

Remember that hand where he had you out-kicked? You want to take a similar line to that hand, if you can. The times he has top pair or better in this hand, you set it up so he thinks he has you right where he wants you.

This hand is actually more like a cash hand than a tournament hand because you're sitting 400 BB effective.

 

[moojersey]

Flat the 3 bet and see a flop. Re- evaluate OTF. This is pretty easy to fold, being deep, early in tourney, and if over cards and further aggression. Let's see what happens though.

 

[moojersey]

Don't let emotion make your next decision.

 

[moojersey]

I say check the flop and see what villain does. Check / Call this board OTF. If villain is a true TAG he has a pretty good hand even with a min 3 bet. Depends on the person but there is a chance Villain wiffs flop with AK and will fold to C-Bet. If he bets he either hit the Q, pocket pair, or overpair. Potential here to stack him. I don't want to lose him OTF. If an ACE or King comes and he has AK we are better off.

 

[doakwolf]

Poker is an interesting game, isn't it!? So many options and paths we can head down...

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Hero puts out $400. Villain thinks for a moment and raises to $1000.

Fold, call or raise (how much?)

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I like the bet/call flop, check/over-raise turn jam river line personally.

 

[ChipTalker]

raise to around 5k ... I don't mind getting it all in if he wants and if I lose set over set so be it. My guess is his raise is to peel off a free turn to hit his AK or he has AA/KK/ maybe AQ. If he calls the flop bet I jam the turn almost always.

 

[moojersey]

I used to play ALOT of tourneys / donkaments before becoming a primarily cash player. I don't know your villain, but most Tags will have AQ at the bottom of their range with this flop re-pop. Especially early on. He thinks this is for value. There is a pretty good chance we can get it all in I think. And that is what we want!!! I say re-pop to 3k and see what his next move is. We have to try to build the pot now.

 

[moojersey]

QQ would be a cooler, but def are in his range btw.

 

[DrStrange]

I flat the raise and check the turn, intending to check raise.

 

[krafticus]

I flat the raise and check the turn, intending to check raise.

I like this approach as well. We got the flop we wanted, so to speak. Let the villain hang themselves....or if they have QQ... c'est la vie

 

[DrStrange]

top set vs middle set = 96% chance of a rebuy, 4% of a story to pass down to the kids.

 

[moojersey]

top set vs middle set = 96% chance of a rebuy, 4% of a story to pass down to the kids.

I have only had set over set one time and thankfully I had the better set. Board paired on the river and there was 4 to a straight if I remember correctly. We both thought the other guy made the straight. Pretty funny hand the way the action went. Ok back to this hand haha

 

[doakwolf]

Hero made the call. Not feeling quite loose enough to re-raise right now. Hero had a disaster with pocket aces (second hand in) at the last tourney and busted out (no re-buys at that game!) so although drunk and playing mostly loose lately, he would like to show this crowd he isn't the worst player out there with another early bust. The cracked aces topic has been raised by Villain numerous times already leading up to and during this game.

Turn comes -

Check or bet (how much)? Seems like most are check-raising here? To Hero's memory, Villain has not been known to bet large amounts (or even small amounts?) into draws.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Hero made the call. Not feeling quite loose enough to re-raise right now. Hero had a disaster with pocket aces (second hand in) at the last tourney and busted out (no re-buys at that game!) so although drunk and playing mostly loose lately, he would like to show this crowd he isn't the worst player out there with another early bust. The cracked aces topic has been raised by Villain numerous times already leading up to and during this game.

Turn comes -

Check or bet (how much)? Seems like most are check-raising here? To Hero's memory, Villain has not been known to bet large amounts (or even small amounts?) into draws.

I like the flat-call on the flop. We're almost definitely ahead, with Villain likely near 0% equity with AA, KK, or AQ. In the rare case Villian has QQ, we're getting stacked anyway. But if we reraise the flop this deep, we're tipping our strength and letting him get away cheaply. By calling, we keep him thinking we have a weaker queen while implied odds still matter.

This turn sucks for us. A brick would have been really nice, not because it means we're safe—we're almost definitely safe against draws given Villian's line—but because it will tend to make a TAG take a pot-control line. With the right board, we might have stacked him, but I don't think that's happening now.

I wanted to check a good turn and let him hang himself, but I think we have to bet this turn to prevent him from checking back. He may fear TJ but will probably still have a hard time folding AA, KK, or AQ if we bet out.

Pot's $2,675. Let's make it $2,000, with the intention of shoving over a raise or betting any river if he flats.

 

[Jimulacrum]

@guinness I feel like you'd have something smart to say here.

 

[moojersey]

Hero made the call. Not feeling quite loose enough to re-raise right now. Hero had a disaster with pocket aces (second hand in) at the last tourney and busted out (no re-buys at that game!) so although drunk and playing mostly loose lately, he would like to show this crowd he isn't the worst player out there with another early bust. The cracked aces topic has been raised by Villain numerous times already leading up to and during this game.

Turn comes -

Check or bet (how much)? Seems like most are check-raising here? To Hero's memory, Villain has not been known to bet large amounts (or even small amounts?) into draws.

I think flatting is fine too. I think we def should bet. We have to build that pot up if we want to get it in this hand. I really can't imagine that we aren't best on this board. Villain does not have J, 10. At least I really really don't think so considering this action.

I would bet close to pot. Pretty connected board and a flush draw now. $2500'ish. The only equity villain has would be if he has something like which would be nasty if he binked river lol

 

[doakwolf]

Hero, at this stage, figures if there's somehow a flush draw on top of the possibility of QQ, then so be it. Probably not thinking about the hand enough, Hero places $1k into the pot and Villain instantly raises that to $2500.

Hero of course calls (and wonders if he's actually a calling station!). Maybe a shove was more suitable here?

The river lands:

- -

Roughly $7700 in the pot and action on Hero to wrap things up?

 

[stocky]

I'm shoving that turn. Expecting variance.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Hero, at this stage, figures if there's somehow a flush draw on top of the possibility of QQ, then so be it. Probably not thinking about the hand enough, Hero places $1k into the pot and Villain instantly raises that to $2500.

Hero of course calls (and wonders if he's actually a calling station!). Maybe a shove was more suitable here?

Whoa there, cowboy. Slow down. I think this would have made an interesting decision point for your post. I don't think that calling was the best play, at the very least because it leaves the pot too small going into the river.

We're still not folding here. If he has QQ, so be it. But it would be best to make sure we get action against his whole range rather than just the top end of it.

I think a shove here would be a little excessive, as your typical TAG is unlikely to call off his whole stack with just an overpair or TPTK in that spot versus a big raise. You'll lose the good action and only get action when you don't want it, against QQ or TJ.

However, we could make a smaller, awkward-sized raise, since we don't especially fear draws. Popping it to $5K puts him in a weird spot. He's almost definitely not folding because the raise is so small, and he may be enticed to shove an overpair or TPTK out of confusion or frustration (he'll say "protecting his hand" or something later).

If he just calls, then the pot will be a lovely size for us to shove on the river ($12,675 with $13,750 stacks).

Unfortunately, merely calling puts us in this spot on the end:

The river lands:

- -

Roughly $7700 in the pot and action on Hero to wrap things up?

What do we do here? We wanted to play for stacks. Effective stacks are $16,250, more than twice the pot size. To play for stacks, we need to either make a giant overbet, or bet and hope to get raised.

A raise from Villain over a PSB seems unlikely here unless he had QQ the whole way. A TAG with an overpair just would not be eager to put his stack in when he can show down for less. He might hero-call a shove, though, since it looks so much like you don't want a call. He may misread your bet-calls the whole way as a draw or weak queen, and a river shove as a desperation move. That seems like the only reasonable chance to get his stack.

Ship it. Try to hold back the tears if he turns up QQ (or 77).

 

[moojersey]

Villain has shown a lot of strength this hand. He has re-popped us every street. If we take him as a true TAG what can he possibly have to do this?

That said how much do we have behind. About 16 - 17K? Jamming would be weird and only QQ or 77 call us. Maybe the straight but I really don't think that is in his range now.

I think check / call River. If he checks behind so be it. We get to see his hand and miss some value. But I'm concerned with all this action.

If he jams I think you have to barf fold. Although I'm personally never folding your hand. I'll let the good players do that