Pocket fours on the button (2 Viewers)

[DrStrange]

Playing 1-2 live, nine handed. We are three hours into the session. The early hours have been a slug fest between several LAGtards, bringing a lot of money on the table early in the session. Who knows, maybe I'll run out of chips? Lately though the LAGtards have taken a rest and are not nearly so aggressive. I suspect that will not last the whole session.

Cast of characters:

No details yet, but the table is filled with hyper loose players - some passive, some aggressive. Most hands are starting out with half the table playing or more. Average stacks are $500 at the moment but that ranges from well over $1,000 to less than $100.

Hero has $600 on a $60 buy-in. Things have mostly gone Hero's way the first three hours. Hero has repeatedly been able to get into massive preflop fights vs. LAGtards when holding 75+% equity. Not always winning the fights, but winning the most important fights.

The hand:

Four limps and two folds bring us to Hero. Hero has . Action on Hero, limp, raise or fold.

Special notes: Hero isn't going the thin the field much with a raise. Hero isn't going to get check/raised light very often. The on-going joke at the table is Hero only plays AA/AK/KK and rarely QQ. (judging by what Hero has tabled, that certainly seems like the truth tonight.)

DrStrange

 

[slisk250]

Given the info, I'd just flat and set 'em up for the trap. No reason to bloat this pot with 2 callers and the blinds yet to act.

 

[DrStrange]

Can someone explain what "bloat the pot" means in a no limit game? I understand the concept in the context of a fixed limit game, but I have no clue how it relates to a big bet game.

 

[slisk250]

Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology here. I see no benefit in a raise. You will not get rid of players and do not have a monster preflop. That's all.

 

[Forty4]

I think what he means is that if you raise to $10 and get the four callers now the pot is $50 and the c-bet would be $25-40 range. Vs if you just limp now the post flop bet would be <$10. You'll have about the same information for less money and it's easier for everyone to get away from their hands with less money in the pot.

You've got position so I see no reason you can't put in a raise to $8-12. You can check if checked around and get the free turn card if you don't hit the set. If after the flop someone bets into you let it go. But if you hit the set and have 2-4 callers pre you could have a nice pot to scoop.

 

[Ghoti]

Good explanation of bloating the pot ^^^. I was going to say limp and set mine until I read 44's post. I quite like his line. And if you only get 1 or 2 callers pre and it checks around to you on an innocuous flop you can even take a stab at it with a 1/2-2/3 pot bet and get a ton of credit due to your table image.

 

[AlPresidente]

Smallish raise is best imo given we're unlikely to get 3-bet light and we're deep. Limping's fine too.

 

[detroitdad]

Given the info, I'd just flat and set 'em up for the trap. No reason to bloat this pot with 2 callers and the blinds yet to act.

Exactly what I was going to say, but not as eloquently.

 

[bivey]

I'd limp, but I like the Forty4's line of thinking. I'd likely wimp out though.

 

[slisk250]

I think what he means is that if you raise to $10 and get the four callers now the pot is $50 and the c-bet would be $25-40 range. Vs if you just limp now the post flop bet would be <$10. You'll have about the same information for less money and it's easier for everyone to get away from their hands with less money in the pot.

You've got position so I see no reason you can't put in a raise to $8-12. You can check if checked around and get the free turn card if you don't hit the set. If after the flop someone bets into you let it go. But if you hit the set and have 2-4 callers pre you could have a nice pot to scoop.

I think if he raises it is likely to see a reraise given the info and then I'm folding. Still like a flat, want the blinds to do the same. We need a set to put another penny in.

 

[Mr Tree]

It depends on the game. If I think a standard raise will elicit a line of calls I love the play. With multiple players I am playing fit or fold with 44. If I get the pot built and hit the set I've already primed it to pay me.

If I'm likely to get four bet then I prefer the call line. Not looking to get overly invested pre.

 

[Forty4]

While it's possible that one of the buttons has a hand, what happens then? If we limped it will get raised by the button and then everyone calls, so now the pot is bloated and we have to call with position (I say bloated because we will have to call the $10-20 raise because multiple players before us have called). Blind raises and it gets reraised we can let go but will probably be tough to do. We raise and utilize our position and table image, it sounds like it is unlikely that anyone will reraise is if we've only been playing QQ or better. Even if someone is sitting there with AA they will likely check to us on the flop thinking we can hang ourself with a c-bet.

 

[Forty4]

I also appreciate everyone's positive comments. I just need to figure out how to be logical at the table. I never seem to make the correct decisions while playing.

 

[Mr Tree]

While it's possible that one of the buttons has a hand, what happens then? If we limped it will get raised by the button and then everyone calls, so now the pot is bloated and we have to call with position (I say bloated because we will have to call the $10-20 raise because multiple players before us have called). Blind raises and it gets reraised we can let go but will probably be tough to do. We raise and utilize our position and table image, it sounds like it is unlikely that anyone will reraise is if we've only been playing QQ or better. Even if someone is sitting there with AA they will likely check to us on the flop thinking we can hang ourself with a c-bet.

I have NO concerns about the pot being bloated. In fact I welcome it. We will either smash the flop and hopefully get paid for it or meek fully fold on a miss. I just don't want to get overly invested pre. Of course we want to make sure people are deep enough to pay us if we do make the set.

 

[Forty4]

I have NO concerns about the pot being bloated. In fact I welcome it. We will either smash the flop and hopefully get paid for it or meek fully fold on a miss. I just don't want to get overly invested pre. Of course we want to make sure people are deep enough to pay us if we do make the set.

Oh I am totally for the pot increasing. I was saying it for those that want to flat and keep the pot small. I don't think it's going to stay small and we are better off being the one to increase it.

 

[Mr Tree]

Oh I am totally for the pot increasing. I was saying it for those that want to flat and keep the pot small. I don't think it's going to stay small and we are better off being the one to increase it.

Within reason. You don't want it to become expensive preflop. I'm not really looking to have to call a reraise. If I can be the initial raiser and get a bunch of calls I am all for it. If I'm going to be looking down the barrel of a reraise I am less into it. If it gets raised and reraised again behind you then you have to sit it down.

 

[DrStrange]

*** Now the flop ***

Hero raises to $6. Everyone calls ----> seven way action. $42 in the pot.

Flop is: < >

SB checks. He is Old Man, Coffee playing $225. Tight, almost nut peddling. Easy to bluff.

BB bets $25. This is Crafty, an experienced profitable LAG playing $800. Thinks deeply when somewhat sober (like tonight). Over plays one pair hands.

UTG+1 calls. This is Crazy playing $200 and is solidly behind. His range is huge, he could easily be calling with an overcard and a runner runner flush draw.

MP calls. He is playing $400. MP is tricky trappy, but ultra loose and sticky. His range could include sets, one pair - even an over pair - and any draw imaginable.

Action comes around to Hero holding . Action on Hero. Fold, call or raise? If raising, how much?

DrStrange

 

[slisk250]

Given this info...

"Special notes: Hero isn't going the thin the field much with a raise. Hero isn't going to get check/raised light very often. The on-going joke at the table is Hero only plays AA/AK/KK and rarely QQ. (judging by what Hero has tabled, that certainly seems like the truth tonight.)"

Then why raise at all. We are not looking to thin the field. We want everybody in that called and if the blinds have hands they will raise it anyway. Sticking with the flat, folding to any raise, hoping to see a flopped set. I understand Tree wanting to get paid if we hit and I think you'll get the same amount in there since we are in position.



edit, - posted this before seeing the flop.

 

[Leonard]

You flop bottom set on a board with flush and straight draws.There's a half-pot bet and two calls to you. Obviously you don't fold. Equally obviously, you don't just call. You are very likely to be ahead hear and nobody hits their flush for free. IMO, your minimum raise is pot sized against three other players. In round numbers, that's $150 on top of the $25 or $175 straight. Pushing isn't terrible.

 

[DrStrange]

Keep the villain ranges wide open. There will be plenty of hands like A7, T9, QJ, J8 as well as the flush and straight draws.

 

[slisk250]

You flop bottom set on a board with flush and straight draws.There's a half-pot bet and two calls to you. Obviously you don't fold. Equally obviously, you don't just call. You are very likely to be ahead hear and nobody hits their flush for free. IMO, your minimum raise is pot sized against three other players. In round numbers, that's $150 on top of the $25 or $175 straight. Pushing isn't terrible.

beat me to it. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[AlPresidente]

About 1/2 the deck puts potential straights or flushes out there. We're very obviously raising here. 'feach sounds right to me - $131 total. Original raiser should then have us firmly on an overpair and you're both deep enough that he'll feel he has fold equity against you. & if he folds, crazy and/or MP are likely to call at which point you're committed.

 

[mipevi]

$200 to go with two black chips!

 

[DrStrange]

*** and now the turn ***

Hero doesn't follow anyone's advice and calls. SB folds. Four to see the turn, $142 in the pot.

Turn is: < >

Everyone checks to Hero.

Action on Hero, check or bet? If betting, how much?

DrStrange

 

[slisk250]

Check. I smell a flush

 

[stocky]

*** and now the turn ***

Hero doesn't follow anyone's advice and calls. SB folds. Four to see the turn, $142 in the pot.

Turn is: < >

Everyone checks to Hero.

Action on Hero, check or bet? If betting, how much?

DrStrange

I don't see why we raise pre but not the flop when we hit like this. Care to explain your thoughts on this?

As played I feel we should check here.

 

[Trihonda]

I don't see why we raise pre but not the flop when we hit like this. Care to explain your thoughts on this?

As played I feel we should check here.

Ya, this

 

[Forty4]

Check.

 

[AlPresidente]

Half the deck (3,6,8,J,heart) are awful rivers for us; LAG is the only villain with a big enough stack to make us fold by check-raising. Bet 1/2 pot.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I would have raised slightly more pre (like $10-$12) but if $6 is a normal raise for you then I wouldn't have done anything differently. Probably would have raised to $100 on the flop. As played, though, barring any tells, and with your image, I make it $80 and fold to any raise.