Tourney Pointers required... (2 Viewers)

[Wils]

Hi folks.

I remember seeing a tourney structure here which was essentially a "freebuy" - a Freeze-out but where if you bust out ONCE before level X, you automatically rebought at no charge.

If you bust out again, you were out for good.

If you got to level X without busting out, you then got an automatic add-on, once again at no charge.

It's a good way of making sure no one goes home too early, without it turning into an "I can afford to rebuy and you can't, so I'm at an advantage" type of situation (I'd be doing this for very social games).

I have a feeling @BGinGA may have come up with it but I can't remember. If anyone knows anything about this slightly unusual format, or plays it, please let me know what you think (good points, bad points etc)

Cheeeeeers

Wils

 

[dkersey]

Following...

 

[JustinInMN]

This is a pretty good idea. Just need a method of tracking who has used their "freebuy."

So maybe you issue one extra chip of an unused color that isn't part of the stack but can be redeemed for a new stack upon a bust-out or for an add-on at the freezeout point.

I don't host tournaments often, but I may try this.

 

[pltrgyst]

Ummm, this is no different than any other rebuy/add-on tourney structure. Just don't charge for the rebuy/add-on chip or its use.

 

[JustinInMN]

Ummm, this is no different than any other rebuy/add-on tourney structure. Just don't charge for the rebuy/add-on chip or its use.

I think the point is usually rebuy/add-on chips are not really issued with cash for stack tournaments. So in lieu of this, find a chip or card or something to use to track the use of a freebuy.

 

[pltrgyst]

I think the point is usually rebuy/add-on chips are not really issued with cash for stack tournaments. So in lieu of this, find a chip or card or something to use to track the use of a freebuy.

Or for a single table tourney, a piece of paper and a pencil.

 

[slisk250]

I think the point is usually rebuy/add-on chips are not really issued with cash for stack tournaments. So in lieu of this, find a chip or card or something to use to track the use of a freebuy.

What?

 

[moose]

This is the format used in several WSOP tournaments. Let's say you wanted to have a 20k tourney. Each player receives 10k chips and one lammer which can be exchanged at any time for another 10k chips.

So you can exchange it right away or hold on to it until needed. The lammer does not play so the player can not bust as long as they still have their lammer. After a certain number of levels the remaining lammers are exchanged so after that point the tourney continues as normal.

I have used it many times when people are travelling a fair distance and I don't want them to bust early and go home feeling like they got taken out on bad luck.

I also use it when I am running a format that players may not be used to. Like a circus game tournament.

So some people will use it as a rebuy chip but some will also use it to keep them near the largest stack at the table.

 

[ekricket]

We play a weekly tourney that is a T15,000. You get a stack of 10,000, plus one 5000 chip. The 5000 chip is not live unless you bust out in the first hour, at which point it becomes your half-rebuy. If you don’t bust out it becomes your addon at the end of the first hour. We used to have a $10 buyin, but with the introduction of this concept it is now a $15 buyin.

The half rebuy is to allow you to suffer a bad beat or whatever yet still remain in to play poker and socialize with a decent amount of chips. It’s not a full rebuy because we didn’t want to encourage short stack all ins before the end of the first hour.

It has done remarkable things for the skill development of our group. Very rarely does anyone bust out for the first two hours of play anymore. And this is a two table tournament.

Used this format on cruise ship last week as well. Casino sucked so we just played our own tournament every day.

 

[Wils]

Ummm, this is no different than any other rebuy/add-on tourney structure. Just don't charge for the rebuy/add-on chip or its use.

It is, I believe. The rebuy is included in the initial buy in, as is the add-on. That's the difference. Otherwise it's like saying there is no difference between a football team and a baseball team - expect for the major, fundamental differences

People don't go home early, whilst avoiding a situation where deeper pockets = greater advantage to loose players.

 

[pltrgyst]

It is, I believe. The rebuy is included in the initial buy in, as is the add-on. That's the difference. Otherwise it's like saying there is no difference between a football team and a baseball team - expect for the major, fundamental differences

People don't go home early, whilst avoiding a situation where deeper pockets = greater advantage to loose players.

I understand all that. What I meant is that there should be absolutely nothing different about the structure or how the tourney is run. You have a rebuy-add-on chip, and you can use it. Whether you paid $100 or nothing for that chip is immaterial (unless there is some option for cashing it in unused).

 

[JustinInMN]

What?

View attachment 172253

Look nice. I was just saying such chips are not necessary in a standard format, but necessity is no requirement in this hobby .

 

[JustinInMN]

View attachment 172254

Used this format on cruise ship last week as well. Casino sucked so we just played our own tournament every day.

Cool, it's not like they will throw you off the boat for gambling .

 

[Wils]

I understand all that. What I meant is that there should be absolutely nothing different about the structure or how the tourney is run. You have a rebuy-add-on chip, and you can use it. Whether you paid $100 or nothing for that chip is immaterial (unless there is some option for cashing it in unused).

Ok I see that my initiai post mentioned "structure" and that was probably badly worded. I know the actual blinds levels etc will not change.

I'm just wondering if the "rebuy/add-on that isn't a rebuy/add-on" element affects the game differently to a traditional rebuy/add-on situation.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I believe this is called a Second Chance Tournament. We have used this in our group for our long format tournaments. This is from the flyer for our event.

Second Chance No-Limit Texas Hold’em. Players begin with $5,000 in tournament chips. Players will receive one FREE add-on for an additional $5,000 tournament chips which can be taken at the beginning of the tournament or anytime during the first four levels. Any player who has not taken their add-on by the end of level four will automatically receive it at that time.​

Works very well when a player gets coolered.

 

[ekricket]

Cool, it's not like they will throw you off the boat for gambling .

Lol no. I’d sit at the poker table chatting with the dealer and recruit players as they stopped by.
They changed the cash limits and the tournament structure in the casino because of my game, trying to entice people back. It was too late.
They had a 10% rake, even on a walk. Initially they only offered a free cruise chance tournament, no cash, but then they went to a sit and go.

 

[BGinGA]

This is the format used in several WSOP tournaments. Let's say you wanted to have a 20k tourney. Each player receives 10k chips and one lammer which can be exchanged at any time for another 10k chips.

So you can exchange it right away or hold on to it until needed. The lammer does not play so the player can not bust as long as they still have their lammer. After a certain number of levels the remaining lammers are exchanged so after that point the tourney continues as normal.

I have used it many times when people are travelling a fair distance and I don't want them to bust early and go home feeling like they got taken out on bad luck.

^^ This is the format we use. Players are issued 10k in chips and a 10k plaque (which is not live, but can be exchanged for 10k in chips anytime between hands). Plaques are automatically exchanged for chips after X levels (depending on what structure is used).

 

[Wils]

Ok. Do you find, using that format, if one person adds on, everyone else is more likely to? (Kinda nobody wants to be the short stack)?

I'm veering towards a free rebuy if you bust out, or an auto add-on at the break if you don't. No optional "I'll take the add-on now" option. Given that the reason I want to try this format is to soften early bust-outs, if everyone has an "arms race" and adds on immediately, then the point of the whole thing is lost.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah I'd agree, I would only issue the add-on at the freezout point for that reason as well.

 

[grantc54]

I've started running all my tournaments this way. As previously mentioned in this thread it has the advantages of providing a safety net for people who bust out early and it limits rebuys to one. It is also much easier to calculate when the tournament will end as you know exactly how many chips will be in play.

Grant

 

[BGinGA]

Ok. Do you find, using that format, if one person adds on, everyone else is more likely to? (Kinda nobody wants to be the short stack)?

Nope, quite the contrary. Here's how it typically breaks down:

Nearly all of the 'weaker' players start short-stacked, hanging onto their 'bust-protection' plaque. That's about 1/3 of the field.

About half of the 'stronger' players opt to start with full chip stacks, figuring it gives them a mathematical advantage. That's generally about 1/3 of the field.

And the other half of the 'stronger' players start with half-stacks, since they feel that they are on equal stack footing vs the weaker players's half-stacks but with a skill edge, and can be more aggressive vs the full-stack stonger players since they have a backup cushion.

So it really becomes an individual strategy decision, and generally one that matches up best with one's play style (and strengths). Most of the players have been playing this format for quite awhile, and have tried both approaches multiple times before eventually settling in on what they think seems best for them.

Summing up the numbers above, events usually start with 1/3 full-stacks and 2/3 half-stacks. Of those starting with half-stacks, about 1/4 bust and replenish, 1/2 add on during play at some point (usually after taking a big hit), and about 1/4 add on when they are forced to, at the end of the redemption period.


Personally, I'm a full-stack kinda guy, and always have been. I like lots of chips.


When I first started using this format, we had 30k starting stacks -- and you could start with 10k, 20k, or 30k (plus the appropriate number of redeemable 10k plaques). We did it that way for a couple of seasons before switching to 20k stacks and just one option, and have stuck with this version for the past seven seasons.

I am actually considering changing it up slightly this year, however -- staying with the same 10k base stacks, but with two 5k redeemable plaques (instead of one 10k plaque) -- so still 20k total, but with options of starting with 10k, 15k, or 20k. Unlike those past 30k seasons (where you either started with 33%, 67%, or 100% of your chips), using 10k+5k+5k puts those options at 50%, 75%, and 100%. Will be interesting to see how it affects strategy decisions out of the gate.

 

[Wils]

Thanks @BGinGA et al. That's given me a whole lot of food for thought.

I think the issue with the way you play is you can still bust out early doors, but on the other hand it opens up a new level of strategy. I must admit I hadn't considered the "not adding on = weaker player" angle, and how that could be useful information. I guess most hardened players would baulk at the idea of keeping half their chipstack behind, just in case they bust out - those extra chips are dead until they're in play, after all.

Cool.

 

[andy699669]

Is this similar to 'Extra Life' system? Basically, your rebuy/continue lammer in your reserve is your extra life. If you lose all your chips and you used up that lammer, Game Over.

 

[Whiteside]

I've used this for all of my (single table) tournaments - a double chance freeze-out - and it works well to create a tournament that lasts a decent amount of time for everyone.

It's a T10,0000 tournament but you only get 5,000 in chips at the start. The remaining chips are given at the end of level 6 or sooner if a player loses their initial stack before that time. I simply use a standard T10,000 tournament structure.

 

[PaulsonCollector]

I've played this in a Casino nearby, about 1,5 h of drive, a couple of times. There almost nobody took the double starting stack, most players used it when busting or being crippled. Made the drive worth it, since you knew you're not going home after 10 minutes of play.

 

[krazystew]

We played a small buy-in tournament at our house for many years that was a single-buy freeze-out. We always had people that complained about never having a re-buy option, immediately followed by people saying to leave it as a freeze-out because re-buys just encourage bad shoves for people with deep pockets.

This seems like the perfect compromise, although there are many options for implementing it.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I've played this in a Casino nearby, about 1,5 h of drive, a couple of times. There almost nobody took the double starting stack, most players used it when busting or being crippled. Made the drive worth it, since you knew you're not going home after 10 minutes of play.

My experience is similar. When we have a long format tournament, especially on a holiday weekend or the Super Bowl, no one wants to go home after getting coolered, especially when we have a few players driving 50 or 60 miles to get here. Virtually no one takes it up front.

 

[grantc54]

This is a pretty good idea. Just need a method of tracking who has used their "freebuy."

So maybe you issue one extra chip of an unused color that isn't part of the stack but can be redeemed for a new stack upon a bust-out or for an add-on at the freezeout point.

I don't host tournaments often, but I may try this.

I use the 36mm Horseshoe buy-in chips for this (I have actually re-labelled the pink ones to match my set). When I collect the cash I give them a green buy-in chip which I them swap for the chips once everyone is seated. It saves people from having to walk around with a stack or leaving unattended chips out on the tables. When they get their stacks they get one of the pink chips which is used for the freebuy (rebuy or add-on).

Grant

 

[Gobbs]

Nope, quite the contrary. Here's how it typically breaks down:

Nearly all of the 'weaker' players start short-stacked, hanging onto their 'bust-protection' plaque. That's about 1/3 of the field.

About half of the 'stronger' players opt to start with full chip stacks, figuring it gives them a mathematical advantage. That's generally about 1/3 of the field.

And the other half of the 'stronger' players start with half-stacks, since they feel that they are on equal stack footing vs the weaker players's half-stacks but with a skill edge, and can be more aggressive vs the full-stack stonger players since they have a backup cushion.

So it really becomes an individual strategy decision, and generally one that matches up best with one's play style (and strengths). Most of the players have been playing this format for quite awhile, and have tried both approaches multiple times before eventually settling in on what they think seems best for them.

I'd ask which category I fall into, but I'm afraid of the answer. (What's that sound a donkey makes?)

I admit, I was somewhat skeptical of this approach when introduced, but I have grown to love it. It certainly adds a couple levels of strategy to the game and most times something tilts play a little more in favor of skill vs. luck, I'm in favor of it.

I usually hang on to my 10K plaque and start with the smaller stack, mostly for the reasons stated above, but also because I believe there is sometimes a weaker player or two who take the full stack and I can be more aggressive against them, too.