Rise of the Euro pitch? (New cheating scandal) (5 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

On his Only Friends show, Matt Berkey yesterday discussed a new wave of cheating in casino (and probably private) games:

The part which caught my attention most was Berkey’s argument around the 28 minute mark that the only fix is to train dealers to use a rare technique which he referring to as the “Euro pitch” or “Aussie pitch.” (Never heard either term before).

If I understand it correctly, the cheating ring seeks to place a player close to the dealer (ideally in Seat 1). The player sets up a very tiny video camera on the rail or on the felt so that the underside of the cards can be seen as they are pitched. The camera apparently is too small to be noticed unless someone is actively hunting for it, and may be embedded on a phone, or in a ring, or a card protector, fidget spinner, or some other device or object, even a water bottle.

The video gets streamed via the player’s phone to someone nearby (possibly in a parking lot) who relays the cards dealt back to the player, via a tiny earpiece which can only be removed with a magnet.

Anyway, that’s the basic contours of the alleged cheating... Will describe the Euro Pitch thing in a followup post.

 

[Taghkanic]

So Berkey says that to prevent this form of cheating, a dealing technique needs to be adopted which apparently is used in parts of Europe and most of Australia, which he calls the Euro Pitch or Aussie Pitch.

The goal is for the cards to never leave the felt, so that there is no way for anyone to see their undersides.

Apparently this is accomplished by the dealer loading the cards into a one-card shoe of some sort, which allows them to slide each card out directly onto the felt. Then each card can be slid to the player, or slid out to do the burns/streets.

 

[Taghkanic]

Berkey further argues that since it really isn’t worthwhile to cheat in this labor-intensive way at low stakes, only dealers at higher stakes or in big tournaments would really need to be trained and equipped to do the Euro/Aussie Pitch.

Still, this would be a big change for many casinos and higher-stakes games.

 

[ThinkingFold]

Well, I don't play online due to cheating and now I can't play at casinos.

Anyone know if the security protocol used on the PCF meetup tour is good?

 

[upNdown]

Yeah I listened to that podcast this morning. What surprised me most was they said this was going on not only in the big cash games at the WSOP, but that it actually happened IN the series, specifically in the $50k.
Just another reason to play low low low stakes.

 

[Taghkanic]

Any Australians who have played in a casino where these are used? I guess it’s like a one-deck version of a blackjack shoe. There may be a cassette the cards are loaded into before being put in the shoe (from something I read on Reddit).

Apparently these are in use for example in Star Casino’s properties in Sydney etc.:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1ckm5ev/special_dealing_shoe_in_use_at_australias_star

 

[Taghkanic]

Bad pic:

Comment on another Reddit thread:

Lots more comments there on the cheating allegations/scandal:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1el82di/berkey_goes_into_detail_about_a_cheating_ring_how

 

[Santa123]

All you need is a hammer.

 

[upNdown]

All you need is a hammer.

I realize this is mostly humor, but it's a good opportunity to point out that this is a huge problem with poker - the casino isn't getting cheated by the cheaters, so the casino doesn't care at all. The casino isn't looking for cheaters, so players have to police themselves.

 

[Santa123]

I realize this is mostly humor, but it's a good opportunity to point out that this is a huge problem with poker - the casino isn't getting cheated by the cheaters, so the casino doesn't care at all. The casino isn't looking for cheaters, so players have to police themselves.

Probably true

 

[BGinGA]

Well, I don't play online due to cheating and now I can't play at casinos.

Anyone know if the security protocol used on the PCF meetup tour is good?

Meet-up game security is quite good. Participants are too sloshed to either care or effectively cheat.

All are welcome, but you will be scrutinized if drinking only water or coffee, or passing on the edibles.

 

[grandmeme]

Any Australians who have played in a casino where these are used? I guess it’s like a one-deck version of a blackjack shoe. There may be a cassette the cards are loaded into before being put in the shoe (from something I read on Reddit).

Apparently these are in use for example in Star Casino’s properties in Sydney etc.:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1ckm5ev/special_dealing_shoe_in_use_at_australias_star

I've only seen them in Star properties. I've been in there once or twice for poker, they are ok but a bit slow in my experience since dealers like to add suspense by dealing the cards slowly, like when they deal blackjack or ultimate texas hold em for some reason.

 

[surfik]

Sounds harsh but I am all for breaking arms and legs...

 

[allforcharity]

Dealing from a one-deck shoe would really slow the game down.

 

[upNdown]

Dealing from a one-deck shoe would really slow the game down.

It would slow it down somewhat. But I bet for a trained and practiced dealer, it wouldnt be bad.

But you gotta realize, it’s about the only way to stop this new brand of cheating. I supppse if you could somehow insure that nobody has any camera’s or earpieces on them, that would work too. But how do you insure that? Take away the phones, but you can install a camera into a ring, or into any kind of card protector, like a fidget spinner.

 

[BGinGA]

It would slow it down somewhat. But I bet for a trained and practiced dealer, it wouldnt be bad.

But you gotta realize, it’s about the only way to stop this new brand of cheating. I supppse if you could somehow insure that nobody has any camera’s or earpieces on them, that would work too. But how do you insure that? Take away the phones, but you can install a camera into a ring, or into any kind of card protector, like a fidget spinner.

Electronic countermeasures? Jam the signals, and simutaneously fry everybody's brains.

Only way to prevent it is electronic cards.

 

[Eriks]

Electronic countermeasures? Jam the signals, and simutaneously fry everybody's brains.

Only way to prevent it is electronic cards.

At least they wouldn’t be Faded Spades

 

[demonnic]

blech, I've played at a live table with "cards" dealt on screens automatically by the table itself on a cruise ship and I did not like it. If I'm playing live I want actual cards. Otherwise I'd rather play online, at least then I don't have to get dressed.

 

[Mike Wells]

I remember seeing an EPT dealer who would drop each card straight down and flick it to the player with her other hand. ...and she was faster than most regular dealers.

 

[gaberr]

Would dealing that way solve one small problem? Yep.

Why not just ban phones and devices on the rail and table? Can't stop 'accidental' airmail folds or 'accidentally' peeking at the cards so high, everyone around you can see. Can't stop 'accidental' bending of the cards that create creases.

Casino dealers are told to effectively not notice many rules infractions. It's on a player to call out angles and errors. I did replace probably and average of 4 setups a day due to 'damaged' cards.

I notice when dealing the higher stake games that those players break rules and etiquette more than any other game. I pushed a few pots upwards of $80k this summer and in games where 3 languages are being spoken and everyone is talking about their hand. It is a private game in a casino environment.. their rules. Opposite of what I ever imagined poker would be like at those stakes, but it just is that way. That level of money is like us playing nickels and dimes, however I'd still want to play by a set of standard rules and follow them.

2-5 NL seems like the most rules compliant with the fewest airmail folds, fewest blatant rules violation attempts, and just plain old poker.

 

[Rakrul]

I don't get it. I haven't seen any casino not using a cut card?

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't get it. I haven't seen any casino not using a cut card?

They aren’t looking at the bottom of the deck. According to the Berkey description, the cheats are getting video of the underside of the top card as it is slid off and pitched. The tiny lens has to be lower than the dealer’s hands.

 

[divinerites]

Why not just ban phones and devices on the rail and table

As previously said, devices are now so tiny they can be in anything. So removing phones and visible device do not stop having tiny devices usable.

 

[gaberr]

As previously said, devices are now so tiny they can be in anything. So removing phones and visible device do not stop having tiny devices usable.

And there is all sorts of signaling happening already but no way to prove it

 

[doublebooyah85]

This is depressing lol

 

[JP1984]

At least they wouldn’t be Faded Spades

8 days to go...

 

[LowerBama1714]

New rule at The Bub Club.

No air mail folds…this ain’t frisbee golf, bitch!

 

[Eriks]

8 days to go...

I had no problem picking out a birthday present for you

 

[SetToBean]

It would slow it down somewhat. But I bet for a trained and practiced dealer, it wouldnt be bad.

But you gotta realize, it’s about the only way to stop this new brand of cheating. I supppse if you could somehow insure that nobody has any camera’s or earpieces on them, that would work too. But how do you insure that? Take away the phones, but you can install a camera into a ring, or into any kind of card protector, like a fidget spinner.

All of the Star properties (Brisbane, the Gold Coast, and Sydney) use 1-deck shoes in their poker rooms. They have a custom product (seemingly unavailable to consumers unfortunately) with a detachable tray for cutting that slots into the shoe with buttery smoothness.

Together with their DeckMate 2s and talented and motivated dealers (rare due to the universal bans on dealer tipping in Australia), they can do it very quickly, well above what people would consider sufficient speed for career dealers in the US, although the ultimate ceiling is probably lower. The trick I've seen from the best dealer I've seen (who I model my own dealing off) is hand-eye coordination -> use one hand to slip a card out, then the other to send it across the felt, with a new card coming out just as your second hand sends the previous card off, then being able to seamlessly switch hands as you pass the middle seat relative to the dealer. Reaching this point is also probably easier than learning to pitch at a comparable speed after getting over an initial hurdle.

Due to their best-possible security against center and bottom dealing, and making second dealing way harder to pull off unnoticed, I prefer them. Card exposure is, as noted earlier in the thread, practically impossible.

I use 1-deck shoes* at all my games. I have noticed a pretty steep learning curve for beginner users though, due to unpracticed hand-eye coordination, which may be why it's seen as slowing things down.

*boring ones. The manufacturer of the Star Group's special shoes said they would get back to me about my inquiry, but they never did even after follow-ups so my guess is that they're not interested in selling them to unlicensed customers under any circumstances.

 

[SetToBean]

Any Australians who have played in a casino where these are used? I guess it’s like a one-deck version of a blackjack shoe. There may be a cassette the cards are loaded into before being put in the shoe (from something I read on Reddit).

Apparently these are in use for example in Star Casino’s properties in Sydney etc.:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1ckm5ev/special_dealing_shoe_in_use_at_australias_star

I had a similar curiosity to this reddit post author and also desperately want one.

See above reply.

I've seen them used in the Star Group's QLD casinos and I think they're amazing in the hands of someone who's practiced with them. The Star also uses Angel plastic cards which have the best felt-gliding properties of any card I've ever used, so they're particularly suited to it.

I think the idea they slow the game down by a significant amount is a misconception based on the dealing method requiring relearning new muscle memory from pitching. It's definitely true for beginner or first-time users - I brought them out at a freeplay social event of mostly first-time players a while back and promptly took them away until I started dealing at the final table because it was so bad compared to beginner pitching.