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Cash Game Robert's Rules of Poker no longer considered universal poker rules? (1 Viewer)

ArielVer18

ArielVer18

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Robert's Rule of Poker hasn't been updated in over a decade and my list of house rules, which clarifies things RRoP doesn't cover, is getting too lengthy and tedious. TDA does a good job covering contemporary scenarios. However, it is focused on tournaments so some rules are too strict for a cash game.

Is there a different set of cash game poker rules people use?
 
My local Card room uses Robert's rules of Poker for cash and TDA for Tournaments.

Using the spirit of both to come up with rulings in situations where not specifically talked about in either has always been what is done.
 
wolfpack said:
curious on some examples of things not covered.
Click to expand...

Couple hypothetical examples where I think RRoP vaguely or doesn't address:

1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion. ​

2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300. ​
 
ArielVer18 said:
Couple hypothetical examples where I think RRoP vaguely or doesn't address:

1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion. ​

2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300. ​
Click to expand...
It's funny you bring up those two specific situations as both are great examples of some gray area in the rules as applied in lots of card rooms.

It should always be ruled on the same way, but unfortunately even in the same card rooms you will see different rulings depending on who is making the ruling.

Situation #1
They will often rule that it is the intent that counts. If the player is new or not a regular they almost always get a pass and are allowed to bet $15. If the player is a regular and in my mind is angling for information I would not hesitate to call the floor. They might still allow the $15 bet, but in my card room they are going to at the very least get a warning and next time the bet is going be be $125. The truth of it is you shouldn't have rules set up so players can be allowed to angle shoot and allowing players to bet $15 this way is just asking for angle shooting.

Situation #2
This could be a variation of angle shooting too. In any sort of limit game including spread limit this is a slam dunk min raise if the amt thrown out there is 1/2 or more or a bet. 1/2 of 150 is 75 so $225 or more qualifies for a min raise and less than that is a call. nl is a little more ambiguous.

However you do it, be consistent with your ruling & your players will get used to whatever you decide
 
davislane said:
Learned something new today. Never heard of Roberts Rules but its probably been something Ive been following no doubt. Any links to either sets of rules mentioned in OP?
Click to expand...
http://www.gottatalkpoker.com/rrp/RobertsRules.pdf
ArielVer18 said:
Couple hypothetical examples where I think RRoP vaguely or doesn't address:
1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
Click to expand...
Well, the rule book obviously isn't going to list every situation that can arise. It's up to floor to make the decision of which rule should be applied as with any ruling - "it depends".
1. I don't rule that as the stack being released, but since the player didn't verbally announce their intent, some may not rule this as a $15 bet. Forward motion is a limit poker rule and has no impact here. If there's a house rule stating that chips passing the bet-line is binding, it's obviously not a $15 bet any more.
2. Either you rule it as a gross misunderstanding or not. If this happens at my home game, I stop the action and ask if it's a call or min-raise so the player can correct the number of chips. If I don't catch it, it would be ruled as a min-raise per section 14, rule 11. The players should always verbally announce what their intent is before acting. Failing that leaves the interpretation of the intent to the dealer or floor, and a risk that the ruling might not go in the silent player's favour. If the player didn't see the previous bet, it's the player's fault for not paying attention. I'm not worried about angle shooting here. If a player can't hide his reaction to chips being put into a pot, angle shooting won't be necessary
 
We just had an incident my 2nd time at the card room.

I am BB, UTG puts in 2 chips without a word, in what looks like a call. 2 people snap fold, 3rd guy shoves all in, 2 more folds, then I notice it....UTG put in 2 black $100 chips instead of 2 blue $1 chips by mistake. Guy to my right asks the dude if he meant to bet that much and UTG freaks out.

Guy to my right feels bad and folds, I look at KQ suited and tank. I end up folding and the floor gets called.

Basically the guy who snap shoved is being super loud and pointing fingers everywhere and just all around being a dick. No matter if he was right or wrong, he was asking to get taken out back.

Floor says the bet stays since so many actions happened after the mistake was made, which I thought made sense, but stayed quiet.

Loud guy with man tits flips over :ts::td: (dont remember if I got the suits right on the 10s), guy who made the mistake flips over :as::tc:

We all cheer for the guy who misclicked, literally screaming like we were yelling at the tv during a superbowl.
Guy drills an ace on the flop and its over from there, we all cheer. Man tits goes home.

I end up cleaning out the guy who made the IRL misclick later. I wouldn't have hated man tits as much as I did had he not been a dickhead to the entire table.
 
So to answer the OP, Robert's Rules is a de facto standard, but house rules may be different.

In general, if you know RRoP, you'll be in pretty good shape for most card rooms around the US. Home games are a totally different beast - some of them have really weird rules. Been there, done it, paid a lot of money for that T-shirt.

ArielVer18 said:
Couple hypothetical examples where I think RRoP vaguely or doesn't address:

1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion. ​

2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300. ​
Click to expand...
1. The standard is that it's a $15 bet, and I think this is what you'll find in most card rooms and home games. However, some card rooms enforce a "betting line," where any chips that cross the line are part of the wager.
2. Assuming Charlie knew about the $150 bet, I would rule this a min-raise to $300. The gross misunderstanding rule only applies if Charlie didn't know about the original bet, otherwise it's the one-chip rule and the "wagers must be brought up to the proper size" rule.
 
ArielVer18 said:
Couple hypothetical examples where I think RRoP vaguely or doesn't address:

1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion. ​

2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300. ​
Click to expand...

FWIW, i agree with RRoP in both of these scenarios. 1. is a $15 bet ( i don't consider "released" a vague term - you either released the chips onto the table over the betting line or you didn't) and 2. is a min-raise, and every game i play in regularly would rule them this way.
 
Wow I'm surprised. The "grab an ambiguous stack, cut and count in the middle of the table, bring back the excess" is a very popular betting style, at least in Vegas and most places I've visited to play poker. However, I understand the ambiguity of this action so whenever I visit a new place, I don't do it until I see a local do it, just in case the poker room uses a betting lines or forward motion.
 
ArielVer18 said:
Wow I'm surprised. The "grab an ambiguous stack, cut and count in the middle of the table, bring back the excess" is a very popular betting style, at least in Vegas and most places I've visited to play poker. However, I understand the ambiguity of this action so whenever I visit a new place, I don't do it until I see a local do it, just in case the poker room uses a betting lines or forward motion.
Click to expand...
When I play in a new room, if there's a line on the table my first question is ALWAYS, "Do you enforce a betting line here?"
 
Schmendr1ck said:
2. Assuming Charlie knew about the $150 bet, I would rule this a min-raise to $300. The gross misunderstanding rule only applies if Charlie didn't know about the original bet, otherwise it's the one-chip rule and the "wagers must be brought up to the proper size" rule.
Click to expand...

This is something I really need to hammer into the heads of a couple of my players. At least once a night someone (often more than once, thus after having had it it explained to them already) will act on a 500 bet or BB by silently throwing 1 x 500 plus a couple of 100s over the betting line thinking he can raise by 200 :rolleyes:

Reading this thread has made me realise just how often and how many times this has been explained to players who really by now should have got to grips with this pretty simple rule.
 
ArielVer18 said:
2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300.
Click to expand...
I don't think this qualifies as a gross misunderstanding. Gross misunderstanding would be like thinking it's a check and sliding out a reasonable bet. Pretty hard to argue this ever wouldn't be a raise. The player is more than halfway there but under the minimum so bump it up to $300 and move on.
ArielVer18 said:
1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion.
Click to expand...
Around here, once you stop cutting chips, or come back from your forward motion, you're done. This applies with a betting line too.

RRoP wasn't intended to cover every possible scenario. Between it, any house rules (clearly stated of course) and your/floors interpretation you should be good.
 
I thinks it’s a stretch to think RRoP isn’t the standard anymore. Of course it doesn’t cover everything but it is still the best set we have.
 
Also I will add, the "release" rule is way better than any "betting line" rule. If the betting line is the rule, angle shooters can pretty much do anything they want to get reads behind the line. You will start dealing with pump-fakes, drops they want to take back and so many other distasteful possibilities.
 
ArielVer18 said:
The "grab an ambiguous stack, cut and count in the middle of the table, bring back the excess" is a very popular betting style
Click to expand...
It is. It’s also risky, and in my opinion, obnoxious and lazy. You don’t see it much here in the northeast, so maybe that colors my attitude. But that’s just a “nothing good can come of it” situation, to me.

I hate angle shooters, but as far as that goes, if somebody gives up information because the other guy pump fakes a big raise (or call,) shame on them.
 
Section 14 No-Limit Rules #6
At non-tournament play, a player who says "raise" is allowed to continue putting chips into the pot with more than one move; the wager is assumed complete when the player’s hands come to rest outside the pot area.
Click to expand...

This rule is so outdated that I've seen three different players at local cardrooms who obviously learned poker pre-pandemic get called for string raising. Some people didn't get the memo that you can no longer make multiple motions after saying raise. You can also no longer say "raise," then pause to look around before completing your statement.

I understand that with the passing of the creator RRoP will never be updated. Is there really no modern cash game rule set?
 
ArielVer18 said:
Section 14 No-Limit Rules #6


This rule is so outdated that I've seen three different players at local cardrooms who obviously learned poker pre-pandemic get called for string raising. Some people didn't get the memo that you can no longer make multiple motions after saying raise. You can also no longer say "raise," then pause to look around before completing your statement.

I understand that with the passing of the creator RRoP will never be updated. Is there really no modern cash game rule set?
Click to expand...
I remember the first time I saw some old school guy doing this, I was outraged!
You don’t see this move often, but for the times I’ve seen it, I’ve never seen a dealer call it an illegal string bet. And I’m glad. I’ve come around. Frankly the string bet rule is dumb. Just let people do their thing, then when it’s your turn, act.
 
upNdown said:
It is. It’s also risky, and in my opinion, obnoxious and lazy. You don’t see it much here in the northeast, so maybe that colors my attitude. But that’s just a “nothing good can come of it” situation, to me.

I hate angle shooters, but as far as that goes, if somebody gives up information because the other guy pump fakes a big raise (or call,) shame on them.
Click to expand...
Long ago, I was playing in a home tournament ($60 entry, two full tables). Not long after starting, I am dealt pocket aces in the small blind (50/100 blinds).

Folds around to me, and I raise to 300. The BB player takes his entire stack (about 15 chips total, a combo of T25, T100, T500, and T1000s), and extends his arm fully forward (about 1" above the felt).

I immediately blurt "call", and flip over my aces. He pulls his hand back and claims he never bet anything. TD is called, who rules 'no bet' because the chips were not released.

I argued the angle-shooter aspect of his action to no avail, and collected my T100 winnings. Also told the POS to my left exactly what I thought of his play, ethics, and suckle preferences. But I've never prematurely reacted or revealed my cards since.

Ended up finishing 2nd in that event, which wasn't nearly as satisfying as busting him out in the second level by calling his all-in with nut flush vs flush (and now holding a much bigger stack, tyvm). Payback is a bitch, you cheating #$%@ sucker.

His action is considered a bet in our current house rules.
 
BGinGA said:
I argued the angle-shooter aspect of his action to no avail, and collected my T100 winnings. Also told the POS to my left exactly what I thought of his play, ethics, and suckle preferences. But I've never prematurely reacted or revealed my cards since.
Click to expand...
This is an important lesson. Bad rulings happen in poker just as they do any officiated sport. Players need to be aware of the rules, but also need to be aware of protecting themselves from the unfortunate reality of bad rulings.

That said, because I can't help but put my TD hat on.

BGinGA said:
I immediately blurt "call", and flip over my aces. He pulls his hand back and claims he never bet anything. TD is called, who rules 'no bet' because the chips were not released.
Click to expand...

This ruling is truly awful. Even if "chips released" is the legit house rule, TD should at least put him on the hook for a call for moving chips toward the pot.
 
I prefer to use multiple sources.

TDA / Robert's Rules / Cooke's Rules

With these three I think you can navigate a situation that isn't explicitly listed.
 
ArielVer18 said:
2. Bobby and Charlie are heads up on the river. Bobby bets $150 with six $25 chips. Charlie thinks for a while, then pushes out 10 $25s. Is this a raise or a call?
According to RRoP, "a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker." Pretty vague, right? In TDA poker rules, this is a min-raise to $300.
Click to expand...

This isn't vague, it's a raise, Charlie put out over 1.5x the bet; had he put out 9 chips instead, then its closer to being vague, but it's still a raise, 8 chips would also not be vague as it's a call.

Putting a full bet plus a half-bet or more into the pot is considered to be the same as announcing a raise, and the raise must be completed.
Click to expand...
Robert's Rules
 
ArielVer18 said:
1. Alex is facing an option to bet or check. Without a verbal declaration, he grabs 25 $5 chips, brings them over to the middle of the table, cuts out three chips, and brings the rest back to his stack. What is the bet?
According to RRoP, absent a verbal statement, "a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot." Released is a vague term. Alex's betting style is very common in 2021 and it's almost always ruled as a $15 bet. Back when RRoP was last updated, players were still arguing about betting lines and forward motion.
Click to expand...
I can't stand this, it's nothing but a distraction, and you see it in several places.

I know a guy who literally has over 70 player cards from various card rooms and casinos. He has had exactly 1 experience with this rule in a casino.

The amount of chips over the line was the bet, but they didn't post it, and they didn't tell him. He had a barrel of 5's and was calling a 45 USD bet; they explained it was a raise.

This is the crappy part, later the tabled had cycled and he picked up a barrel of 25s and said 'Call' as he moved across the betting line, well now it's a raise and he can Hollywood it's a call and make a fuss.

Releasing chips isn't vague it's a physical action, when he removes his hand, what is left is the bet.

This creates more angling than it helps, hence against the spirit of the game.
 

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