Cash Game Tournament vs Cash Poker Rules (1 Viewer)

[glynn]

The proper procedure

What you quoted is the proper procedure according to the TDA. The subscribed card rooms are down stream from the Association and will gradually consume the procedure. This is one of the more common ways that a rule can change nowadays.

 

[TheOffalo]

The premature turn procedure change in the newest version of the TDA rules is the most significant change. "random is random" vs "card destiny"

Schrodinger's River...

 

[4SUMERZ]

What?! you might have miss-understood.

Flop, round of betting, before the last player acts, the dealer burns and tables the turn face up for all to see. The issue is the last action was not complete, the card must now go back into the deck so that it has a chance to come out. To do so at this point ruins the original hand and changes the river card.

The proper procedure from here, is you complete the flop action, burn again (3rd burn card) you then table the river card. There is a round of betting, once action is complete, you then place the turn card in the deck, shuffle, cut, no burn, card comes off and face up on the table.

I see that I did misunderstand. I now understand...We will continue our current procedure.
Thanks for the info

 

[Mr Winberg]

If you're interested.

This is interesting. I'll quote it:

"This is incorrect. The origins of IWTSTH are well documented, by myself (in a hundred years worth of rulebooks) and by other, well established, "old-time" poker players.

The "rule" of poker is that all hands are tabled at showdown. Period. Being allowed to muck without showing is a modern courtesy.

It's true that IWTSTH was also viewed as a deterrent against collusion, even in OLD OLD rulebooks, but that's secondary to the fact that the game of poker has, for about a hundred years, required all players to table their hands.

Remember, MUCKING at showdown is the new "exception" to the rules, and something we allow people to do as a courtesy."

I haven't heard that before, that all players used to table their hands. Any old timers here that can confirm?

 

[glynn]

I see that I did misunderstand. I now understand...We will continue our current procedure.
Thanks for the info

What you described is the new procedure. Whether it's "proper" depends on whether you bind your procedure to the TDA and how quickly you adopt changes. Both are fine, but as @ArielVer18 points out, there is a shift towards rules that acknowledge randomness over any marriage to cosmic order.

 

[glynn]

I haven't heard that before, that all players used to table their hands. Any old timers here that can confirm?

We're talking more than a hundred years ago, so most of them are dead. Those researchers (and in particular that poster) have looked into it extensively, and the IWTSTH lineage can be traced back to original showdown rules first. It evolved as a right as we started allowing players to muck without showing and is now more of a privilege or outright disallowed.

 

[Machine]

I’ve never seen a game in the last 28 years where all hands at show down were required to be tabled. Much beyond 18 years and it was all fixed limit. You see people “kittying” which would also cut down on collusion.

 

[Frogzilla]

Besides the big things already mentioned about straddles and showing all-ins, tourneys are usually a lot stricter on heads-up banter

 

[Machine]

This is interesting. I'll quote it:

"This is incorrect. The origins of IWTSTH are well documented, by myself (in a hundred years worth of rulebooks) and by other, well established, "old-time" poker players.

The "rule" of poker is that all hands are tabled at showdown. Period. Being allowed to muck without showing is a modern courtesy.

It's true that IWTSTH was also viewed as a deterrent against collusion, even in OLD OLD rulebooks, but that's secondary to the fact that the game of poker has, for about a hundred years, required all players to table their hands.

Remember, MUCKING at showdown is the new "exception" to the rules, and something we allow people to do as a courtesy."

I haven't heard that before, that all players used to table their hands. Any old timers here that can confirm?

I’ve never seen a game in the last 28 years where all hands at show down were required to be tabled. Much beyond 18 years and it was all fixed limit. You see people “kittying” which would also cut down on collusion.

Circling back, in a slightly more recent post , there is information about a previous forum and post that mentions (not cites) a hoyle rule from the 20s-30s that mentions an author that suggests changes to soften poker for the players and mentions adding, not needing to show down on the river allowing players to muck.

Again, this is not really a citation, and I'm not sure a 'courtesy' that is 100 years old would be considered modern.

 

[glynn]

That is the very researcher who is quoted here

 

[ArielVer18]

Besides the big things already mentioned about straddles and showing all-ins, tourneys are usually a lot stricter on heads-up banter

Ugh, difference in the table talk rule. This should've been number 1 on the biggest difference between tournaments and cash games. Cash games you can say and do almost whatever you want as long as it does not unfairly influence the action of the players left in the hand.

This is more difficult than I thought. I'm trying to go from:

"We follow RRoP, but here's a list of house rules that takes precedence"
to...
"We follow TDA, but here's a list of house rules that takes precedence for cash games"

It's easier to say "here are the poker rules; btw, here are tournament only rules" than "here are the poker rules, but here's a list of rules that don't apply in non-tournament settings."

I recently discovered the WSOP has a separate rule set for their cash games. It's riddled with typos and format errors, but it seems to be loosely based on RRoP with some modern updates.

 

[Samuel]

Here is something for you:

Cash game - Player A is first to act on the flop, Player B is last to act; Player B moves all in on the flop, Player A calls. There is no more action throughout the hand.

Who is obligated to show the hand first?

Historically I've heard last aggressive action, I've also read unless the action occurred on after the river, it would start just left of the button and be on Player A.

For me, I would start just left of the button. I've not been able to find this in RR or Cooke's. Also this is addressed in Cooke's rules

In our games, for the above, Player B would have to show first (there is no more action only because there is no more money to bet). If they both still had money but chose not to bet turn & river (or only river) then left of the dealer goes first (but no one Has to show)..