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Roundtable discussion between CCA and PCF members (1 Viewer)

I know the jokers are gonna joke, but putting that aside for a second, I think this is a good opportunity to help both single and set collectors. We joke about them and they dislike us. In general that's just the way it is now. I know that I have run into occasions when a singles collector has refused to sell me a chip I really needed at an imo absurd price because they knew it was going into a set. They dislike that we are interested in more than one example of any given chip. A small set to us is what they disparaging call a hoard.

I'm not sure they are aware how much we have moved the needle in the singles collectors market over the years. It's either that or they turn a blind eye to it because they are profiting from it. Publicly they complain that we are hoarding, but privately they love it because they benefit from the sales. Look at any common TRK, Dunes golf series or the 98 Bellagio's (just three examples off the cuff). There is absolutely no reason a Bellagio $5 chip should sell for $50+. It's an $8 to $10 chip... However because set collectors are trying to fill out racks or complete sample sets there are bidding wars. Don't get me started on the $10 and above.

These guys also are deep into the history of casino's and chips. The knowledge that some of those guys have is amazing. It's not out of the realm of possibility that they may know someone that knows someone that could lead to some crazy find. If we openly communicated with each other, who knows what that could produce? We all collect casino chips, we just specialize in different areas. We are all in the same hobby... just not in the same hobby. Getting to a place where we are all looking out for each other (see all the @ replies in sales adds) could benefit everyone.

There are obsticles for sure. Singles collectors (at least the organized group) are in general much older than the average PCF user. We already know they are slow to adapt to technology (see thechipboard), but @CCA_SM_Director is trying to change that. I think even with their new forum there is still a very long way to go to get it to a place that seems inviting to new people, but every journey begins somewhere.

TL;DR - If you want to help grow the hobby in general (both singles and sets), think about how and why you found PCF and stayed here. As a bonus if you collect singles at all, what isn't appealing about the club? Get that info together and jump on the call and have a conversation.
 
ChipEnvy said:
They dislike that we are interested in more than one example of any given chip. A small set to us is what they disparaging call a hoard.
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Yes. But we shouldn't be offended by this word. It's just their lack of understanding of what we do. Personally I think collecting singles is a ridiculous thing to do. But why should they care about my stupid opinion?
I'm not the right guy for this call but I think it's a great idea. And people who aren't interested in improving understanding and relations should just stay out of it.
 
CCA_SM_Director said:
One of the primary topics is how do we break down the us vs them when it comes to the hobby.

Help explain why people collect sets to single collectors and vice versa. Would someone be willing to display one of their sets at the CCA Chip Show and talk to members on what drives set collectors.
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Someone should display a ratrod set at the upcoming convention and watch as everyone’s head explodes
 
ChipFinderSK said:
Someone should display a ratrod set at the upcoming convention and watch as everyone’s head explodes
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Most would probably just think it was someone's collection, not a playable set. Once the realization kicked in, I bet more would be impressed by it than turned off by it.

We should have a meetup game on the convention floor. Switch sets every hour or so. Get one of the Dunes sets in play, maybe one of the WSOP circuit event sets in there... I'm mostly kidding, but...
 
I'm not into cars as a hobby, but I could imagine this sort of tension playing out there. They all love cars, but...

Classic Car Collectors: We collect cars and parts only with an eye toward preservation. Attempts to modify a classic car destroys history. Buying up multiple cars to harvest parts is hoarding and (in addition to being destructive) deprives others of the opportunity to own a piece of history. Putting more miles on a classic adds unnecessary wear and tear. If we work together, we can place these in a museum to educate the public rather than just a few benefiting.

Classic Car Restorers: Cars were meant to be driven! I may have to gut one car to harvest parts for another car. I may have to fabricate components. I may have to modernize some specs to make it road worthy. But the sum is greater than the parts. Let's breathe life into this hunk of metal while staying true to its DNA. I've also got a deadline - I'm road tripping in this thing to the next classic car meetup. Folks are gonna have a blast riding in this beauty!

Modders: Yeah, that '65 Mustang would be so much cooler with hydraulics and a giant spoiler on the back! And let's strip that original paint job because I want flames baby! I wonder if I could get an electric motor in here...hmmm. Sure, I could mod a newer Mustang instead...but, whatevs. This is my property and I will do what I want.
 
ChipFinderSK said:
You might be right. Now that I think about it, it might be the best way to explain set collecting to singles collectors.
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The easiest way to explain is to play some poker w someone’s amazing set. My assumption is most of the singles collectors are not poker players.
 
The conversation you are having is exactly what we are looking for. Help us explain to the single collectors why you love what you love. Please join us we have some ideas already in mind to give you a platform to educate the CCA members. Also don't forget we will need you to send us an email to the address listed so we can send you the invite to the zoom. You can also message us on PCF with that information. We will not be using it for any other purpose.
 
I wanted to add this from my personal account vice from the CCA account. I know I am a singles collector but have always loved to see the racks of chips you all put together. I may not be a set collector by definition but years ago I set out to try to collect 5 of every 1.00 Las Vegas chip issued. I think it was mostly to keep me searching for another chip to add to the ones I already had so I can see the draw to putting racks together. Because of this I have founds some unique chips along the way when I would go to a casino to buy more than just one. Attached are a few pictures of some of the oddities I have found. Most are some off center inlays but the BrassAss chip has the same image on both sides and should be slightly different. The Ballys from Colorado I got directly out of the poker room like that. I grabbed a couple of Barrels to sell and trade and when I got home I found that one.

Even collecting just 5 of the same chip I got some odd looks and comments but it has helped me with growing relationships with some of the top dealers in the CCA. They know what I am looking for and when they find them they let me know. Of course the ones I am looking for now cost a few more pennies than when I first started. I know I am not well known on this forum but I will always be rooting for everyone to complete their collections no mater if it is just the 1 or 100s because we all love the hobby.

Enjoy some of the oddities I have found and please consider joining the zoom call.
 

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I nominate @41Pickup There would be (in my opinion) no better spokesperson. He has been a CCA member for years, attended the last 8 or so Las Vegas conventions, had arguably the rarest Tropicana TRK 1st edition playable sets out there, is a self made businessman, and is the nicest guy you’d ever hope to meet.
 
AfterTheFact said:
I nominate @41Pickup There would be (in my opinion) no better spokesperson. He has been a CCA member for years, attended the last 8 or so Las Vegas conventions, had arguably the rarest Tropicana TRK 1st edition playable sets out there, is a self made businessman, and is the nicest guy you’d ever hope to meet.
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Not sure I can live up to that intro. I’m willing to have a few conversations to see if some fences can be mended and help the hobby grow. Message sent to join the zoom call .
 
This might be a weird thing to say, but it probably wouldn’t be productive for anybody to brag about how many sets they own.

From (what I imagine) a singles collector’s perspective, I can totally see why they might think a certain way about set collectors. But it might be easier for them to accept if they picture a guy like me with literally one high end set. If you start telling them about guys who own 20, 60, 100+ sets of 500-1,000 chips, that could be a tough pill to swallow.
 
I hereby nominate
upNdown said:
This might be a weird thing to say, but it probably wouldn’t be productive for anybody to brag about how many sets they own.

From (what I imagine) a singles collector’s perspective, I can totally see why they might think a certain way about set collectors. But it might be easier for them to accept if they picture a guy like me with literally one high end set. If you start telling them about guys who own 20, 60, 100+ sets of 500-1,000 chips, that could be a tough pill to swallow.
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on the contrary, I would like to represent the hoarding fake chip Paulson NAGB caucus.
 
CCA_SM_Director said:
Help explain why people collect sets to single collectors
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I would say that most PCFers are mainly assembling sets *to host actual poker games with them.*

Which is obviously a very, very different goal than collecting singles for their rarity, or collecting to achieve some sort of complete inventory… Say, trying to find one chip from every Reno casino between 1950-1970.

The focus on (and endless debate about) chip breakdowns within sets is testament to that hosting purpose shared by most PCFers.

IIRC a poll a while back indicated a large number of members have just a couple sets, often one for cash and one for tournaments; while relatively few have more than 2-3 of either type. There a some members who host much larger games, but my sense is that most of PCFers are running just 1-2 tables.

You also don’t see many PCFers posting pr0n of sets which consist of just one barrel or just one rack of each denom, because you can’t host a good full-ring poker game with short breakdowns.

Yes, some clearly advance (degenerate?) from the original goal of having enough nice chips for hosting their home game to “collecting” more sets than we can ever practically get into play. … Ya know. Hoarders.

Still a lot of PCF buying/selling activity seems to involve either trying complete a playable set, shedding excess chips, or swapping one set for another because someone’s budget or hosting needs changed.

I suspect that PCFers’ collection sizes fluctuate up and down a lot over time. Whereas I assume the singles collectord tend to just slowly and steadily grow their holdings, until the collector dies or gets tired of the hobby.

Personally, at one point I had about 12,000 chips—almost all of them in playable sets, with only a few strays and sample sets. After resuming hosting post-pandemic, I started paring things back to what I actually needed for my games. I’ve sold many chips which I knew I could never get back, because they had no real utility for games. I can’t imagine a collector ever approaching things that way.

Anyway, the idea of communication between groups can’t hurt. Certainly the combined knowledge bases could further historical research. But as far as core purposes, TBH I don’t feel like there is much commonality among people assembling playable sets for actual games and singles collectors.
 
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@Paul Schaffer @CCA_SM_Director

I want to thank you and point out the approach to engage the members of the forum. I also want to thank you for including us.

While I’ve not been here long, my perception is that set collectors typically are motivated by playing poker, a few by playing blackjack or craps. There are a few of us that also collect for the hobby and or historical value of it.
 
BarrieJ3 said:
“set collectors are motivated by playing poker”

Also on PCF every day:

“Mint chip set, bought in 1992 just haven’t had time to get it felted. Too great a set to collect dust, only $35k”
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It kills me because I see both sides of this coin.

I am (relatively) young and some of my childhood friends still have juvenile/idiotic tendencies. I am also about to be an attorney, so I have a lot of friends/colleagues who are at very functional humans fit to practice law.

My childhood friends will probably *never* see my vintage Vegas set in action—they’re why I have a sick TV chipco set. My attorney friends *might* play with the Vegas set, but they’ll probably see the PNYs more often. Place and Time, Barrie, Place and Time.

(Also, another example, I took a 2.5 year break and recently found a hoard of chips I completely forgot about. Sometimes people are being earnest when they emphasize never felting chips lol)
 
For reference, nearly 24% of PCFers own less than 2,500 chips, 46% under 5,000 chips, and nearly 70% under 10,000:

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Since most playable sets seem to run in the 600-1,200 range, that suggests nearly a quarter of us have 0-3 sets, nearly half have 0-5 sets, and 70% have 0-10 sets.

A lot of the smaller holdings seem to be in large casino chipsets liquidated by @TheChipRoom, fantasy chips, THC solids, live harvested chips, etc., not to mention various China clays, Tinas, ceramics, injection molds and other chips likely of little interest to singles collectors.

As such I suspect that only a small elite of PCFers hold many chips that singles collectors would truly covet. If a collector needs sample Jacks or HSI chips for their collection, those are easy to come by… and the fact that others own hundreds or thousands of them should not matter.

(Possibly there is more overlap between the two groups among TRK holders than other types of chips, but I’m not terribly familiar with the TRK market.)

I for one have no real interest in or knowledge about rare singles. To me that pursuit has more in common with coin or stamp collecting than chipping as it occurs on PCF.

Per the same poll, less than 10% of PCFers have truly vast collections of 20K+ chips. These seem to be the ones that make the singles collectors antsy. And make me envious.
 
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