Sets should be banned! (2 Viewers)

[legonick]

Sets should be banned!

Yeah, tilt post...but it's so hard to put someone on a set. Maybe that's because I'm pretty sure I've never had one, only other people cracking my pocket Ks?

How do you guys get away from donking off chips to someone with a set, either pocket pair that makes, or getting lucky grabbing on a paired board?

 

[ChipTalker]

OK from the title I though you meant chip sets and we were going to have some problems.
Carry on.

 

[FordPickup92]

Well. I was very confused, and initially thought some grump from the chip board was ranting about singles again.

To the topic, typically by reads and tells. Most people give away info with body language whether accidental set or flopped set. And just fyi - a set is a pocket pair making the set on the board wirh the 3rd card, trips is one card in your hand with the other two paired on the board

 

[upNdown]

Well. I was very confused, and initially thought some grump from the chip board was ranting about singles again.

To the topic, typically by reads and tells. Most people give away info with body language whether accidental set or flopped set. And just fyi - a set is a pocket pair making the set on the board wirh the 3rd card, trips is one card in your hand with the other two paired on the board

live, sure
online, not as easy

 

[Josh Kifer]

You beat them with a boat.... Then, sets arnt too big of a deal.

 

[TheDuke]

Well. I was very confused, and initially thought some grump from the chip board was ranting about singles again.

To the topic, typically by reads and tells. Most people give away info with body language whether accidental set or flopped set. And just fyi - a set is a pocket pair making the set on the board wirh the 3rd card, trips is one card in your hand with the other two paired on the board

Was about to post set vs trips definition as well.

Much easier to avoid spewing to trips vs a set.

But sometimes you just go broke against a set.

Just have to reload and try to set mine as well.

 

[cgpilot]

Live game two weeks ago. I’m on short stack, pocket queens all in preflop. Get called by pocket kings. Hit 3rd queen on flop, he hits 3rd king on river.

It happens.

 

[JMC9389]

Live game two weeks ago. I’m on short stack, pocket queens all in preflop. Get called by pocket kings. Hit 3rd queen on flop, he hits 3rd king on river.

It happens.

Yup. I've told this story before, but I was short stacked in a tournament last year in the third level with just over 10 BB's left. I'm in the big blind and I pick up aces. I raised to 3 BB's rather than shove to try and get some action. Only the button calls and 10 10 3 rainbow comes out. I go all in and button snap calls with 10 3 offsuit for the flopped boat. No ace to bail me out and I re-bought but ended up chopping the tournament with one other player.

Yeah, you get coolers, but dust yourself off and keep playing to your strengths and good ABC poker. In the long run, you're going to make money off of the donkeys that call a raise with 10 3 off more often than not.

 

[wolfpack]

Last night on ignition got all in before the flop pockets aces against pocket kings, he makes the set on the flop and busts me.

 

[Darthhoodie]

It's poker right, so there are times that you will not see the truck that is about to run you over. Do your best to read the situation and your opponent but understand that there will be situations that you will not see and lose you chips. Not even the best of the best can avoid this every time.

 

[redwine]

The facts that sets exist is not a problem; you should hit sets on your opponents as often as they hit sets on you, so that is a wash.

The edge (or lack of) comes in how you play the sets. If you play your overpairs like they're invincible every time (or otherwise take actions where you aren't considering your opponents ranges and yours) while your opponents do, that's where the problem is.

In poker your true goal is not really to win the hand you're win, it is to have a strategy that can win long run for the given situation you're in.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Sets shouldn't be banned.

Running my sets down with a 5-high flush draw or gutshot - that BS should be banned.

 

[Beakertwang]

I once lost 5 set-over-set hands in four nights, so only set-over-set hands should be banned.

 

[joeyshin]

First hand of the night.

Me:
Friend:
All in Pre

Flop:

Turn:

River:

<<<<<luckbox

Everytime someone posts a badbeat story I’m gonna post a goodbeat story. Okay not every time. Okay just this once. I don’t have enough of them

 

[mattross1313]

It's folks with low pocket pairs I end to miss, and they run under the radar. I focus more on the higher cards, and some guy is sat there with 33 on a 3JA board, so I just donk off the chips.

First hand of the night.

Me:
Friend:
All in Pre

Flop:

Turn:

River:

<<<<<luckbox

Everytime someone posts a badbeat story I’m gonna post a goodbeat story. Okay not every time. Okay just this once. I don’t have enough of them

Nice run out! I won our weekly game last week, massively helped by 2 hands where I runner-runner'd Full Houses! Sometimes the poker God's are on your side

 

[Lil Tuna]

Well. I was very confused, and initially thought some grump from the chip board was ranting about singles again.

To the topic, typically by reads and tells. Most people give away info with body language whether accidental set or flopped set. And just fyi - a set is a pocket pair making the set on the board wirh the 3rd card, trips is one card in your hand with the other two paired on the board

Damn girl! Got me concerned about being at your table this weekend! You been reading the book of tells and shit?

 

[Legend5555]

Easy. Play better.

But seriously, it sounds like you over value one pair hands. On certain boards, overpairs and top pair just aren't as good as I suspect you think they are. And depending on stack sizes, sometimes you just can't escape losing your money to a set.

A good rule of thumb is that if a person pays more than ~10% of their stack pre flop to try and flop a set, then they are generally going to be losing more money than they make in the long run.

 

[Coyote]

With "just" an overpair, however high, or top pair-top/good kicker, you don't want a big pot.
The objective is pot control.
Bet either the flop or the turn - not both. If the villain is still with you, try to check the hand down, if possible. If not, fold.

 

[FordPickup92]

Damn girl! Got me concerned about being at your table this weekend! You been reading the book of tells and shit?

Lol nah, my friend Matt has been giving me some pointers

 

[Jimulacrum]

It's true that sets are typically one of the toughest hands to put someone on.

The best thing you can do to avoid stacking off with big pairs against sets (and trips, evidently), if we're talking about a game with a regular cast of players, is to know how your opponents tend to play sets and watch for those betting patterns.

For example, one of the guys in my weekly low-stakes NLHE game always checks if he flops trips with a pair on board. Always. If there's only one bet to him, he'll call and save his aggression for the turn. I've used this information on many occasions to minimize my losses against this player.

Of course, it won't always be something so specific, but you should pay attention for betting patterns that indicate a lot of strength from players who don't usually fool around. Sometimes that'll be a check-raise into multiple players, sometimes it'll be leading out into someone who's likely to raise, and sometimes it'll just be conspicuously calling another player down to let him hang himself. Try to think about what people are doing and whether their range for any given action includes a lot of hands that will beat your pocket kings or whatever.

Typically, the biggest difference you'll observe is that many players' approach to the action is dramatically different when they have one pair versus more than one pair. With one pair, typical players tend to bet to protect their hand from draws and get modest value from other one-pair hands. With bigger hands, they tend to take lines that are designed to make a big pot, if not get stacks in the middle.

Also, come to terms with the fact that sometimes you just can't get away. This is especially true with tricky opponents who take aggressive lines with a wide variety of hands. If you can't surmise whether a player has a set or top pair or a flush draw, you're just kinda stuck giving action when it's a set, but you'll make lots of money on average when it's one of the other two cases. That's just poker being poker.

 

[rowlin]

PCFers be like, “I think he needs that OTHER message board,” then like, “Oh. Okay.”

 

[AWenger]

How do you guys get away from donking off chips to someone with a set,

By playing PLO, where with a wrap + a flush draw on the flop, you might be a favorite vs. any set. Then you get the sets to donk shove into you.

 

[Jambine]

To the topic, typically by reads and tells.

^that^
Sets are dangerous and not easy to see. Gottta pay attention

 

[legonick]

...

To the topic, typically by reads and tells. Most people give away info with body language whether accidental set or flopped set. And just fyi - a set is a pocket pair making the set on the board wirh the 3rd card, trips is one card in your hand with the other two paired on the board

Was about to post set vs trips definition as well.

Much easier to avoid spewing to trips vs a set.

But sometimes you just go broke against a set.

Just have to reload and try to set mine as well.

Doh, thanks for the corrections.

The facts that sets exist is not a problem; you should hit sets on your opponents as often as they hit sets on you, so that is a wash.

The edge (or lack of) comes in how you play the sets. If you play your overpairs like they're invincible every time (or otherwise take actions where you aren't considering your opponents ranges and yours) while your opponents do, that's where the problem is.

In poker your true goal is not really to win the hand you're win, it is to have a strategy that can win long run for the given situation you're in.

Easy. Play better.

But seriously, it sounds like you over value one pair hands. On certain boards, overpairs and top pair just aren't as good as I suspect you think they are. And depending on stack sizes, sometimes you just can't escape losing your money to a set.

A good rule of thumb is that if a person pays more than ~10% of their stack pre flop to try and flop a set, then they are generally going to be losing more money than they make in the long run.

With "just" an overpair, however high, or top pair-top/good kicker, you don't want a big pot.
The objective is pot control.
Bet either the flop or the turn - not both. If the villain is still with you, try to check the hand down, if possible. If not, fold.

The fuzzy hand in question was me with KK, playing against a very new player, I raise big pre-flop, he calls, everyone else folds.

Flop is trash, J, trash, rainbow. I raise way too big, he calls. I put him on AJ suited, hit his Js. Turn is more trash, full rainbow, he goes all-in, I stupidly make the call, he was sitting on JJ. My K never comes, and I'm basically busted.

It's true that sets are typically one of the toughest hands to put someone on.

The best thing you can do to avoid stacking off with big pairs against sets (and trips, evidently), if we're talking about a game with a regular cast of players, is to know how your opponents tend to play sets and watch for those betting patterns.

For example, one of the guys in my weekly low-stakes NLHE game always checks if he flops trips with a pair on board. Always. If there's only one bet to him, he'll call and save his aggression for the turn. I've used this information on many occasions to minimize my losses against this player.

Of course, it won't always be something so specific, but you should pay attention for betting patterns that indicate a lot of strength from players who don't usually fool around. Sometimes that'll be a check-raise into multiple players, sometimes it'll be leading out into someone who's likely to raise, and sometimes it'll just be conspicuously calling another player down to let him hang himself. Try to think about what people are doing and whether their range for any given action includes a lot of hands that will beat your pocket kings or whatever.

Typically, the biggest difference you'll observe is that many players' approach to the action is dramatically different when they have one pair versus more than one pair. With one pair, typical players tend to bet to protect their hand from draws and get modest value from other one-pair hands. With bigger hands, they tend to take lines that are designed to make a big pot, if not get stacks in the middle.

Also, come to terms with the fact that sometimes you just can't get away. This is especially true with tricky opponents who take aggressive lines with a wide variety of hands. If you can't surmise whether a player has a set or top pair or a flush draw, you're just kinda stuck giving action when it's a set, but you'll make lots of money on average when it's one of the other two cases. That's just poker being poker.

Good points, and I def. should have taken a safer line against this player. The 3 bourbon and ginger ales were not helping me either, LOL.

 

[Legend5555]

The fuzzy hand in question was me with KK, playing against a very new player, I raise big pre-flop, he calls, everyone else folds.

Flop is trash, J, trash, rainbow. I raise way too big, he calls. I put him on AJ suited, hit his Js. Turn is more trash, full rainbow, he goes all-in, I stupidly make the call, he was sitting on JJ. My K never comes, and I'm basically busted.

When you say "raise big," what do you mean? Did you open? If so, how much? Did you reraise someone? If so, how much? On the flop did you overbet the pot?

 

[boltonguy]

What stakes? Micro stakes online they have it 90%+ of the time when they make large turn and river bets. As the stakes increase so does bluffing.

I recently lost a medium sized pot with KK against a set of 5s. Basically I hit stuck on the value of my hand in isolation was too excited to have KK and ignored the strength his actions represented. I let the pot get too big for top pair. Sets are tough.

 

[Sambukan]

Sets should be banned!

Yeah, tilt post...but it's so hard to put someone on a set. Maybe that's because I'm pretty sure I've never had one, only other people cracking my pocket Ks?

How do you guys get away from donking off chips to someone with a set, either pocket pair that makes, or getting lucky grabbing on a paired board?

Isnt it about the same question as how do you let go of an lower pair? You hold a pair of tens, but someone flops a higher pair or holds a higher pair? Betting patterns, putting them on a hand range etc

 

[legonick]

When you say "raise big," what do you mean? Did you open? If so, how much? Did you reraise someone? If so, how much? On the flop did you overbet the pot?

I was in an early position and did open. I don't recall the amount. No re-raise, and just got called by the villain. I think I did overbet the pot on the flop.

What stakes? Micro stakes online they have it 90%+ of the time when they make large turn and river bets. As the stakes increase so does bluffing.

I recently lost a medium sized pot with KK against a set of 5s. Basically I hit stuck on the value of my hand in isolation was too excited to have KK and ignored the strength his actions represented. I let the pot get too big for top pair. Sets are tough.

Just a home game tournament.

Yeah that's similar to how I donked off most of my stack. Need to keep my eyes peeled next time!

Isnt it about the same question as how do you let go of an lower pair? You hold a pair of tens, but someone flops a higher pair or holds a higher pair? Betting patterns, putting them on a hand range etc

I don't feel that way - I expect and look out for pairs. If I have 10s and the board comes A Q 2...yeah, I'm scared. But my KK was ahead of "everything" else...except JJ. But yes...the hand range and the way he reacted to my bets meant he was either making a move, had AJ, or had JJ. Def. should have limited the size of the pot more.

 

[Legend5555]

I was in an early position and did open. I don't recall the amount. No re-raise, and just got called by the villain. I think I did overbet the pot on the flop.

What this indicates to me is that you don't have a standard raise size pre flop. And overbetting the flop is a good way to cause people to fold a lot of hands that you probably best unless that player will just give it all areas with just Top Pair.

If all you care about is playing recreationally, then that's cool. Buy if you want to discuss hands in a serious way with people that might be able to help, you will need to keep track of things like:

Positions
Blind size
Stack sizes of all involved players
Pot size
Bet size

 

[Legend5555]

But my KK was ahead of "everything" else...except JJ. But yes...the hand range and the way he reacted to my bets meant he was either making a move, had AJ, or had JJ.

Could he not have had all the other flopped sets? Was there a straight draw possible?

Without all the information I spoke about in my previous post (including exact cards on flop and turn), it's hard to know if you should have kept the pot smaller or if this was just a bound to happen cooler.