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Sickest folds ever or is it insanity (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Poquiler
- Start date
Moxie Mike
Full House
Terrible fold IMO.
I'd be interested in @Bmeister51's opinion since he's the only one I know of around here with experience at those levels. But flatting QQ pre seems bad, then checking back the turn when checked to by the preflop aggressor twice. Flopping quads is always a tough spot to extract value but you have to try to build a pot at some point.
The river sequence is weird too. After EP sticks out a small bet, she raises as a huge overbet in what can only be a futile attempt to build a pot when she failed to do so on previous streets. Then she ultimately folds - explaining that while holding quads she can only beat a bluff and sometimes a FH?
I have to wonder if this even actually happened. I don't know who this person is, but this doesn't sound like the play or rationale of someone who leveled up all the way to $20/$40/$80NL.
I'd be interested in @Bmeister51's opinion since he's the only one I know of around here with experience at those levels. But flatting QQ pre seems bad, then checking back the turn when checked to by the preflop aggressor twice. Flopping quads is always a tough spot to extract value but you have to try to build a pot at some point.
The river sequence is weird too. After EP sticks out a small bet, she raises as a huge overbet in what can only be a futile attempt to build a pot when she failed to do so on previous streets. Then she ultimately folds - explaining that while holding quads she can only beat a bluff and sometimes a FH?
I have to wonder if this even actually happened. I don't know who this person is, but this doesn't sound like the play or rationale of someone who leveled up all the way to $20/$40/$80NL.
Kym is a mid stakes crusher in Vegas, absolutely built herself up from $2/5 to these mid to high stakes and is a phenomenal live player. I’ll agree that I don’t like the line for most of the hand, but the exploitative fold at the end after getting 5bet for ~800BB doesn’t seem like the craziest thing in the world. If you play these stakes that deep stacked you have to be able to fold in gross spots.
Moxie Mike
Full House
I concede that those stakes are an entirely different game and I have no idea what would be proper.
But I surmise that anytime anytime you're super deep and put in a 4-bet raise with the 2nd nut, in the back of your mind you already know what you're going to do if you face a huge reraise. In which case, why 4-bet at all in that spot? She said said it was to extract value from AA & TT but her opponent has to have exactly those hands to pay her off at all.
The whole thing just seems weird to me. It sounds like the type of game that because the stakes are so high, no one expects to get their stack in without holding the stone-cold, uncounterfeitable nuts.
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FordPickup92
Royal Flush
I don't have any business in this thread honestly lol but like hell if I'm folding those Queens!
I agree terrible (non existent) betting pre here.
But really....fold???
I agree terrible (non existent) betting pre here.
But really....fold???
Changster
Full House
3rd nut
I folded 33 on the river with board J93 2 5. I knew the player and I knew he flopped good, I have chacked/call flop and turn and folded river. I was curious whether he had JJ or 99. Turned out it was the later.
Sure, but would you have folded quad 3's?
FordPickup92
Royal Flush
Changster
Full House
REG is the only person that can have the nuts or 2nd nuts. Kym didn’t specify exact positions so I’m using the loosest range possible given her description. I’m assuming full ring, REG is UTG+2, Kym in the LJ.
Since we don’t know the players at all we also have to assume they don’t get out of line pre flop much (which obviously is false since Kym flatted QQ).
KdJd, Jd9d in the LJ is a standard fold vs UTG+2 raiser. Sometimes KdJd could be a 3 bet here if you’re using a slightly looser live range.
Having said this... REG is the only person with these two hands in his range.
Since we don’t know the players at all we also have to assume they don’t get out of line pre flop much (which obviously is false since Kym flatted QQ).
KdJd, Jd9d in the LJ is a standard fold vs UTG+2 raiser. Sometimes KdJd could be a 3 bet here if you’re using a slightly looser live range.
Having said this... REG is the only person with these two hands in his range.
Exactly this! What do we hope villain is shoving with ... AQ???
I’m sure there’s quite a bit of meta between these two also. Maybe it’s a harder fold against a random.
Nope. But fun fact... One of the player that folded on flop had A4 of spades and would rivered straight flush.
2 or 3 it doesn’t really matter since BOTH SF’s can’t be in play. Only 1 person can have a SF.
Good point, but thinking REG is shoving there with AQ is overly optimistic.
EDIT ... I meant AA
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Can’t have AQ. All 4 are accounted for. She had quad Q’s
Moxie Mike
Full House
Changster
Full House
Yeah the absolute vs effective nutz. From Kym’s view both are in play.
Frogzilla
Straight Flush
If you have that kind of read why 4bet...just flat 3
Zmasterben
Flush
Changster
Full House
When stacks are deep in higher stakes there’s much more of a chance of 5 bet bluffs pre flop vs 5 bet bluff shoves on the river.
Easy fold. This is why Kym is a Vegas crusher.
Easy fold. This is why Kym is a Vegas crusher.
Someone help me here. She flopped quad queens and is folding on that board because her opponent could have rivered some variation of a straight flush correct? KJ or J9 of diamonds?
Yes. Does that help?
Jesus, that's sickening. I'm going broke there I'm just too bad to make that lay down.
I think it’s much different at the lower stakes.
Sorry, I meant AA. And REG has to wonder if he would really get called with a worse boat if he shoves AA (AQ).
I have no idea what players of this caliber think because the game is just so different. When she raised to 21k if you're not ready to call a jam wouldn't it just make more sense to flat the $6800? I would think that when she makes the the raise to 21k you have to ask yourself prior if you're ready to call in an all in and if the answer is no you maybe don't raise in this spot. I understand that you need to get paid but damn, blowing 21k on the river to not even give yourself a chance of winning kind of sucks. Again, I'm probably just bad so don't mind me haha. My mind can't really comprehend that much money on the table. 
Moxie Mike
Full House
I have no idea what players of this caliber think because the game is just so different. When she raised to 21k if you're not ready to call a jam wouldn't it just make more sense to flat the $6800? I would think that when she makes the the raise to 21k you have to ask yourself prior if you're ready to call in an all in and if the answer is no you maybe don't raise in this spot. I understand that you need to get paid but damn, blowing 21k on the river to not even give yourself a chance of winning kind of sucks. Again, I'm probably just bad so don't mind me haha. My mind can't really comprehend that much money on the table.
Here's what I know: In no-cap buy-in games, there are routinely stacks that are 1000+BB deep. It's not common to get it all in like you would in your typical $1-2 or $2-5 game when you start 50-200 BBs deep and can easily reload if you get felted. By raising to $21k leaving $42k behind, she left herself plenty of latitude to fold - knowing that her opponent could only jam with the nuts. She knew she wasn't paying off if her opponent jammed.
So it's a mindset of extracting max value while minimizing exposure. In short, she surmised a raise of that size would get get called by a couple of hands in her opponents' range... whereas if she raises and induces a fold she earns the same amount as if she'd simply flatted her opponent's reraise - with the added meta-game bonus of not having to table her hand, which against savvy opponents is definitely +EV.
As I think about it... I like the 4-bet raise more than I did when I first read about it. I don't care for any of the early street plays but maybe those lines are standard for that game.
Freakin crazy!!!!! Great fold. (ShE LeT HiM GeT ThErE loblol)
Yeah I go broke on that hand day in an day out
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