Simultaneous Omaha and Hold'em hand from the Rumble (1 Viewer)

[Jimulacrum]

I have no experience playing this game but have a question to those with some experience.

Would you not be better off setting 82dd and JJ66 on Omaha.

I know the hand is trash but an 8h flush and a set/quads/boat on Omaha has the only scoop possibilities?

Just asking because I would like some strategic insight into this game

That's how I approach it, yeah. Not everyone agrees with me on this, but I consider scoop potential paramount in this game. Of course, with so many cards in each hand, scoop potential means making the nuts on at least one side, and at least some kind of strong potential on the other.

Shooting for only one side in SOHE is worse than shooting for high only in, say, Omaha high-low, since the pot is guaranteed to be split in SOHE.

 

[DrStrange]

*** On to the flop ***

Hero calls, three way action with $10 in the pot (well not exactly, but we aren't going to mention that quarter again.)

Flop:

T_Chan leads out for $10, the max bet allowed.

Action on Hero, fold, call or raise? If raising, how much and why?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pot.

We have an extremely strong hand on the hold'em side, but almost nothing in Omaha—just a gutshot and a basically worthless pair, plus backdoor diamonds.

Ideally, we'd like to get it all-in vs. T_Chan, or at least heads-up (with position, importantly). Even if he's strong in Omaha, we have half the pot nearly locked up and a draw to beat him on his strong side. If he's only strong in hold'em, we may have him crushed. It will be pretty rare for him to have strong prospects both ways given what we're holding.

It wouldn't be terrible to just take down the pot either.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Pump as much money into the pot as you can. youre looking pretty good on that Holdem side. Gotta build a pot to be able to apply enough pressure to steal the equity you don't have on the Omaha side.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Again no experience playing this game but I'm gonna pot it as well with hopes to fold out some weak Omaha hands and get called by worse sets / 2p Holdem hands (not sure how likely either of this having never played the game)

 

[DrStrange]

The normal logic still applies to ranging hands. J95 rainbow isn't going to hit many random hold'em hands much less a hand that is build from six cards. J9 might be out there, but 95 and J5 are really remote (not impossible, but remote). Lesser sets are in the mix though. A straightening turn like a ten would be potential trouble for hero - KQ would be a plausible hand for T_Chan though not for David O.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Yeah I would still pot flop and bomb any card that doesnt complete a straight

 

[T_Chan]

@T_Chan is first to act playing $300. He is the loosest and most aggressive of the three. Not a LAGtard but definitely not a wall flower.

Certainly not a LAGtard, only a quasi-LAGtard. (y) :thumbsup:

@Gear was shocked to read that you labeled (no pun intended) me as loosest player, but he wasn't at the table to see that I pretty much called any hand unless it was 3 bet or more providing the game had 3+ cards. Hold'em's another story but for our "1 ring circus" table it was fun to see so many flops.

Reading with interest, it's not often I get to read about the strategy and thought process of the other players in the hand in detail.

 

[David O]

I made one of the Dr's posts again. Love it

 

[DrStrange]

Don't worry @David O - you are in one or two more to come.

 

[David O]

Don't worry @David O - you are in one or two more to come.

I guess if you have that many notes on me I should not show up to your games anymore? Just kidding. You hold a great game. All you people in Texas that have been invited but have not attended, you do not know what you are missing!!!

 

[DrStrange]

*** the turn ***

Hero calls, David O calls. $40 in the pot, three way action.

Turn: < >

T_Chan leads for $40. Action on Hero - call or raise?

 

[Chicken Rob]

*** the turn ***

Hero calls, David O calls. $40 in the pot, three way action.

Turn: < >

T_Chan leads for $40. Action on Hero - call or raise?

I would have raised the flop, I definitely raise the turn. Your mantra should be pot pot pot pot pot pot pot right now. You have top boat on the hold 'em side, try to steal the PLO side. Raising the flop makes the pot raise ere more powerful. If you lose to quad 9s on the holdem side, that is a cooler in my book.

 

[jbutler]

I would have raised the flop, I definitely raise the turn. Your mantra should be pot pot pot pot pot pot pot right now. You have top boat on the hold 'em side, try to steal the PLO side. Raising the flop makes the pot raise ere more powerful. If you lose to quad 9s on the holdem side, that is a cooler in my book.

I definitely agree that the name of the game is to fold out your opponents' equity in the side you don't have locked, but there is an argument to be made that calling the flop and then jamming down the gas on the turn is the correct play because:

- it gets more dead money into the pot for the chop that will almost certainly occur if you're called;
- by allowing the pot to build on the flop you are able to put max pressure with your turn aggression.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I definitely agree that the name of the game is to fold out your opponents' equity in the side you don't have locked, but there is an argument to be made that calling the flop and then jamming down the gas on the turn is the correct play because:

- it gets more dead money into the pot for the chop that will almost certainly occur if you're called;
- by allowing the pot to build on the flop you are able to put max pressure with your turn aggression.

I agree that generally trying to lock up half and milk the field is a viable strategy as well. I just thought the pot bet on the flop would have been called by both players. The field was not that big. Nor was the pot.

 

[GrumpyCatMalaka]

Potpotpotpotpotpotpotpotpotpot.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think someone may have mentioned this already, but have you considered potting it?

 

[DrStrange]

No, I didn't even know I could.

 

[courage]

Potpotpotpotpot. Run 2x? Sure. Here's your $4. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[DrStrange]

*** Results ***

Hero calls. David O raises to $80. T_Chan goes all-in. Hero calls with less. David O calls.

Hero holds /

T_Chan holds / :9c

David O holds /

The board is : < >

David O has the Omaha side with nines full of jacks locked up
Hero has the Holdem side with jacks full of nines but has to fade a river king.

Sadly the river brought the and a scoop for David O

 

[DrStrange]

Here are Hero's thoughts:

Preflop the hand was a fold. The dangling two cripples the hand badly enough that hero should wait for a better hand.

Post flop:

On the flop, Hero has hopes of scoop - there are nut draws on the Omaha side. Top set on the hold'em side is "safe" It seemed profitable to flat $10 and see what unfolds. The goal was to win a stack, not a $20 pot. Let's note that Hero will get his stack all-in just by letting someone else bet the pot all three streets so long as we stay three handed. It is debatable if Hero has fold equity (since we don't know the villains' hands at this point)

On the turn, Hero knows a scoop is very unlikely if the betting gets fierce but the holdem side seems close to a lock (95%). Hero is quite aware that David O has a hold'em side overpair most of the time but expects a turn pot could get David to fold. At this point it looks like a chop is very likely, so the best line for profit is getting three way action. Thus hero continues to slow play.

The aggression from David O and T_Chan mostly confirms that no one is playing pocket nines on the hold'em side. Both players are good enough not to risk a 600bb stack under full on the Omaha side, so both nines can't be on the hold'em side. The nines have to be on the Omaha side for this to make sense.

Hero's equity estimate was 95% on the holdem side and 2% on the Omaha side or just over $100 equity in the hand.

The decision to invite three way action by passive play vs trying to buy the pot through aggression isn't obvious, especially after the turn locks up the hold'em side. Hero doesn't face a RIO risk, so he can fire away if desired. The implied odds are a little greater when checking than if Hero pots T_Chan's $40 bet. If Hero fires away, he might bluff T_Chan into folding a winning Omaha side or on a lucky day get heads up with the hold'em side locked and a weak scoop draw. So betting might be worth $80+. It is possible that Hero could take a call turn, jam river line and get the same fold from T_Chan.

 

[gopherblue]

Here are Hero's thoughts:

...
Post flop:

The goal was to win a stack, not a $20 pot.

With all due respect, this is where you lost the hand. SOHE is brutal--waaaaay more variance than PLO. WIth the cards you had, you needed to jam and hope to take down the pot right there.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

With all due respect, this is where you lost the hand. SOHE is brutal--waaaaay more variance than PLO. WIth the cards you had, you needed to jam and hope to take down the pot right there.

I disagree completely. Once Dr. Strange decided to play the hand, the cards pretty much played themselves. Maybe T Chan could have gotten away with a non-nut boat and threes, but David O is never folding that hand after that flop or that turn. At least he got T Chan's money in the middle too before the river of destruction.

 

[gopherblue]

I disagree completely. Once Dr. Strange decided to play the hand, the cards pretty much played themselves. Maybe T Chan could have gotten away with a non-nut boat and threes, but David O is never folding that hand after that flop or that turn. At least he got T Chan's money in the middle too before the river of destruction.

What the hell do you know about SOHE?

 

[David O]

What the hell do you know about SOHE?

LOL

 

[abby99]

One would think that setting one's hand when playing Lazy SOHE should be easier. For those who haven't heard, in Lazy SOHE, the player sets his hand after the river.

The original question was how should Hero set his hand. It's an interesting exercise to review this hand as if it had been Lazy SOHE. How likely is it that the action would have been the same? Would we set our hand differently after seeing the entire board? Would our decision change if David O suddenly says, "I have Kings full." Food for thought.

 

[Chicken Rob]

I originally posted this in the lions den thread:


SOHE cash game strategy:

Heads up: lock up half, try to steal other half.

Typical result: opponent out draws you, you make an emergency winner to get the other half. The 2 of you take back your half of the $1200 pot and split the $0.75 in dead money.

Multiway pot: lock up half, try to win half of giant multiway pot.

Typical result: some guy with 3 scoop outs gets there and your stack evaporates as he drags his miracle 5 way monster all-in pot.

We achieved step 1. Regardless of which path he took, the potpotpot or check call path, the outcome was the same. No such thing as a lock in SOHE.

 

[T_Chan]

After playing some SOHE here and there, I have noticed that there's a high tendency for 2 players to chop the pot, one going for the HE side and the other the Omaha side, so having 2 players all in then chopping is frequent. Getting a 3rd stack is more desirable when you have a strong hand on either side to at least chop the 3rd players' stack rather than chopping some blinds and maybe a bit extra from players who called preflop and maybe a flop bet.

With a large stack, who wants to risk 200+bbs to chop the pot and come out of it up 3-5bbs?

Dr.Strange had the near nuts on the hold'em side and pretty much wants to chop either my stack or David O's knowing by the turn that the only hand that beats him is QQ, AA or KK that his their 2 outer on the river. Great read by Strange to realize the 9's aren't in play on the Holdem side and unfortunate the K came on the river. The final pot should have been a chop for David O and Dr. Strange of my stack which is a nice sized win IMO.

 

[Chicken Rob]

After playing some SOHE here and there, I have noticed that there's a high tendency for 2 players to chop the pot, one going for the HE side and the other the Omaha side, so having 2 players all in then chopping is frequent. Getting a 3rd stack is more desirable when you have a strong hand on either side to at least chop the 3rd players' stack rather than chopping some blinds and maybe a bit extra from players who called preflop and maybe a flop bet.

With a large stack, who wants to risk 200+bbs to chop the pot and come out of it up 3-5bbs?

Dr.Strange had the near nuts on the hold'em side and pretty much wants to chop either my stack or David O's knowing by the turn that the only hand that beats him is QQ, AA or KK that his their 2 outer on the river. Great read by Strange to realize the 9's aren't in play on the Holdem side and unfortunate the K came on the river. The final pot should have been a chop for David O and Dr. Strange of my stack which is a nice sized win IMO.

Part of the terror of deep stack big bet SOHE is getting it in heads up for your stack to chop the blinds. But getting run down by a 2 outer is not unique to SOHE. To me PLO feels like higher variance than SOHE.

In PLO it sucks to stack off when your opponent makes an improbable boat because he pairs an unlikely dangled in his hand. Same kind of thing. These circus games can be big swings. It is part of the fun.

 

[T_Chan]

I feel though that Dr.Strange here is in a good spot because his hand that he has virtually locked up in the hold'em side. If he's banking on the Omaha side holding up without the nuts which can't be redrawn on, then he's not as safe. Just my thought, I'm not very experienced with SOHO nor Omaha.