Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I discuss my experiences working at poker clubs, the highs, the lows, and my thoughts on marketing and creating a sustainable poker economy
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So you want to open a poker room? (20 Viewers)
- Thread starter Anthony Martino
- Start date
Huskerchipper
Flush
Cliff notes???
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I worked for leaders I felt made bad business decisions.
Rooms should look at locsl marketing opportunities to reach fun, recreational players, rather than trying to attract traveling grinders.
Rooms should protect lower stakes games from playing too big. Deeper buyins, straddles and match the stack all benefit your grinders and chew through the recreationals too quickly.
Huskerchipper
Flush
Seems to make sense. Would you say they are focusing on short term gains instead of long term stability and the quality of the poker room?
I will give it a listen tomorrow at work. I am in Marketing at a new Casino that will be opening a 12 table poker room so I am interested.
I will give it a listen tomorrow at work. I am in Marketing at a new Casino that will be opening a 12 table poker room so I am interested.
drdr
Straight
Indeed. Keeping a good volume of rec players should also benefit pro/regs anyhow.
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
They tend to market and cater too heavily towards the overly serious grinders. Dudes with the hoodies, headphones, sunglasses and scowls on their faces, to the detriment of the fun recreational crowd.
Yes, you do need grinders to start games, etc. But you also want to ensure there is an entry point for fun, recreational players, the lifeblood of your room.
Too many room operators are listening to feedback from the grinders, and thus structure cash games and tournaments in ways that gives those grinders addirional advantages over the recs, resulting in sheep being slaughtered rather than sustainably sheared
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
That's really ALL you need to give the grinders, a steady supply of fish to feed on. All your marketing and promo dollars should be going towards that goal, attracting, rewarding and retaining the fun, recreational player pool.
All these promos that award "the most hours played" in the room are terrible. You're funneling all those promo dollars into the grinders pockets, completely backwards, imo.
Don’t you need grinders though? Who else is going to be playing poker on Tuesday at 2 pm? It seems like all the poker rooms around here struggle to get players, especially Monday through Wednesday. They might get a crowd Thursday evening and are usually busy Friday through Sunday. It has to be so tough to sustain a business when you have no customers at least 3 days a week. It’s the same reason restaurants fail all the time.
ekricket
Royal Flush
I lol at grinder vs grinder. Only the house wins.
You need new people constantly. New people don’t want to sit at a table of sharks or machines. They dont mind losing money, but they hate to get taken by anyone and that’s what it can feel like.
Do the same shit the same way and what do you get every time?
Which is better for the room -
one person losing $200 in an hour and then leaving, cursing the room and players and badmouthing it to anyone that will listen in their gambling circles
or
5 people losing $40 in an hour and then maybe two of them pull out another $40 each and lose it, but they all talk about the good time they had and not the money they lost and plan on doing it again next Tuesday
You need new people constantly. New people don’t want to sit at a table of sharks or machines. They dont mind losing money, but they hate to get taken by anyone and that’s what it can feel like.
Do the same shit the same way and what do you get every time?
Which is better for the room -
one person losing $200 in an hour and then leaving, cursing the room and players and badmouthing it to anyone that will listen in their gambling circles
or
5 people losing $40 in an hour and then maybe two of them pull out another $40 each and lose it, but they all talk about the good time they had and not the money they lost and plan on doing it again next Tuesday
ekricket
Royal Flush
Poker needs a handicap system like golf.
bsdunbar1
4 of a Kind
In Nebraska?
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Oh for sure. I talk about it in the video. Grinders start games, keep shorthanded games going so they fill and individually are your customer giving you the largest volume.
But imo the ONLY thing you as a room operator need to do, is make sure the sharks have a steady supply of fish to feed on.
Deeper buyins, straddles, match the stack in cash games are edges your grinders don't need over the recs.
Same with unlimited rebuy, multi-day, multi-bag tournaments. So much harder for the recs to have a shot when grinders are given all the edges
What about implementing a karate belt system…that would be sweet.
ekricket
Royal Flush
You need small buyin single table freeze out. Win three consecutive in the same day and get a bonus.
Keep it short so people can get in and out and go pick up the kids before 5
Have a low stakes cash table for the losers to play at. Too low stakes for grinders. Low enough that calling stations can fuck with them.
Huskerchipper
Flush
Yep. Opening in mid February in Grand Island.
Huskerchipper
Flush
Yeah the whole casino reward system is based on volume. It's easily measured and just a math equation for them. I can see your point and it needs a good Manager to see the big picture and develop a culture and not only think about the easiest way to create revenue. I am sure it would get exhausting hearing from your regular grinders all day every day about "how are you going to reward ME" Thats all you ever hear from regulars and the casino industry has created its own monster with that reward system as it's never enough.
OP
OP
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
The Tampa Hard Rock has a beautiful, insanely successful 46-table poker room, but its still the black sheep of the property.
Casinos care little for poker, smaller revenue per sq ft, higher costs to operate with more staffing needed.
Slots are going to generate around 70% of property revenue is my understanding
ekricket
Royal Flush
Make poker as fun as slots. Easy peasy.
Huskerchipper
Flush
Slots are definitely the cash cow.
ekricket
Royal Flush
Although I was joking, what if you played “Bomb Pot” poker? Every hand everyone that wanted in pays $5. Then people could come and go and not worry about posting blinds or buying buttons. Rake $10 right off the top.
Position issues would be the same as blackjack but nobody would care.
tabletalker7
Full House
I can easily see a $5 ante required to play a hand chasing off the new people you need to keep a room active and growing.
Rakrul
Straight
I've linked to this book a dozen times now but it's well worth the read, especially as a host.
https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everything-Better-Analysis-Improvement/dp/1880685647
The thing they focus on is to have proper balance between luck and skill. If you have all luck you lose the grinders, the more skill based the quicker you lose your room due to lack of fish. They mention many of the things Anthony has in his video like don't allow deep stacks, don't allow straddles as well as some variants which mess up the math for the GTO wizards.
They also speak of stupid promotions that only benefit the good players, don't allow RIT and other things that benefit (mostly) the grinders.
https://www.amazon.com/Cardrooms-Everything-Better-Analysis-Improvement/dp/1880685647
The thing they focus on is to have proper balance between luck and skill. If you have all luck you lose the grinders, the more skill based the quicker you lose your room due to lack of fish. They mention many of the things Anthony has in his video like don't allow deep stacks, don't allow straddles as well as some variants which mess up the math for the GTO wizards.
They also speak of stupid promotions that only benefit the good players, don't allow RIT and other things that benefit (mostly) the grinders.
So long as I get to wear suspenders.
I have played this before at the casino where the entire game is nothing but bomb. It is a lot of fun, but if the players wise up, it becomes nothing but a nit fest.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Anthony, have you considered opening up your own card room? You have the ides, forethought and (some) experience. I know you don't like working for the man - but how about being the man?:
...or are you afraid of the PCF criticism when we see your chips.
...or are you afraid of the PCF criticism when we see your chips.
are you ever going to put that computer together?
demonnic
3 of a Kind
I shudder to think what kind of start up capital you should have on hand to open a card room properly and have enough to cover operating expenses during that first unprofitable year. A lot of what it sounds like went wrong with the two rooms he discusses were rooted in not having enough money to properly support the launch and/or unreasonable expectations about time to profitability. This was compounded by bad decisions it sounded like but even those were rooted in trying to keep things afloat by cutting costs/corners. Or that's the impression I got anyway.
Huskerchipper
Flush
Wow. Good in depth reflection on marketing poker rooms. Unfortunately most people can't think any further than whats happening next week.
I was really taken back when you were talking about the Manager changing promotions mid month and on the fly. The Texas Gaming Commission must be super lax and chill. We have to get ALL promotions ok'd with the Commission before the month and we have to follow the rules those rules to a tee. Period. The state gaming commissions i am familiar with would be all over that shit. Most likely the casino would receive a stiff fine and be looking at the possibility of shutting down the casinos ability to run further promotions if continued. Crazy.
I was really taken back when you were talking about the Manager changing promotions mid month and on the fly. The Texas Gaming Commission must be super lax and chill. We have to get ALL promotions ok'd with the Commission before the month and we have to follow the rules those rules to a tee. Period. The state gaming commissions i am familiar with would be all over that shit. Most likely the casino would receive a stiff fine and be looking at the possibility of shutting down the casinos ability to run further promotions if continued. Crazy.
ekricket
Royal Flush
That’s how blackjack and other table games work, and they seem to do ok. Some people - some people - I said it twice, want to just walk up, put a bet down, get some cards/dice/whatever, and then see how it plays out. They don’t want to wait 10 minutes to get a seat, get chips, and then come into the proper rotation to just get dealt cards. That’s why they play slots - for more than $5 a spin - or blackjack for $25/hand.
If poker was like that, just walk up, put a bet down, get dealt cards, you lose and walk away - some people would like that very much.
@Anthony Martino
Dumb question maybe, but are cardrooms in TX allowed to serve beer / liquor? Is there any requirement they also have to serve food if alcohol is served?
(Ie - in VA for example, any place that serves alcohol also has to serve food and food must make up a min of 20% of their total sales)
Do you think food is a revenue draw in the card room model?
Dumb question maybe, but are cardrooms in TX allowed to serve beer / liquor? Is there any requirement they also have to serve food if alcohol is served?
(Ie - in VA for example, any place that serves alcohol also has to serve food and food must make up a min of 20% of their total sales)
Do you think food is a revenue draw in the card room model?
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